from Hacker News

Cameras and secret trackers reveal where Amazon returns end up

by jgneff on 10/10/20, 3:53 PM with 338 comments

  • by inopinatus on 10/10/20, 10:31 PM

    Let's take a moment to look at how disingenuous this article is:

    * Out of twelve returned trackers, one of them went to landfill. The article focuses on that item and does not itemise the fate of the others.

    * Adding a tracking device to a returned new product is tantamount to damage. If such a device is detected during returns processing, anyone with half a brain should immediately presume a malicious actor and have the item very carefully and securely assessed for disposal.

    * Did not verify that the tracking device remained within the bag.

    * "30-40 percent of online purchases are returned" what absolute hoopsla. I've worked in online commerce and this is off by an order of magnitude. A very few segments (e.g. shoes) may approach such return rates.

    This crap is why journalism is in such disrepute.

  • by sokoloff on 10/10/20, 4:18 PM

    > 30 to 40 per cent of all online purchases are sent back

    That seems almost an order of magnitude higher than I’d expect. Setting aside kids shoes (which probably do get 50% returned), I can’t imagine sending back even 5% of my online purchases, let alone 30-40%.

    I think I’ve sent back exactly 1 Amazon order in the last year, out of nearly 100.

  • by ThePhysicist on 10/10/20, 5:51 PM

    In Germany there are companies that buy up returns by the kilogram (mostly clothes), sometimes the e-commerce companies even pay them to take the goods off their backs. They then ship them to countries like Irak, Serbia or Lebanon to prevent those perfectly goood items to "flood" the European market. That way especially clothing brands protect their inflated prices.
  • by hourislate on 10/10/20, 9:08 PM

    Amazon has become an expensive place to shop for everyday items. I've found they typically don't have the best prices anymore and many of my tastes have changed over the years.

    They are still super useful to find those hard to get parts that would typically be impossible to find locally or at least very expensive. Like a carburetor for a chainsaw or a part for an appliance, bearings for a hood fan motor, monitor arm, etc.

    A lot of retailers have picked up their game when it comes to online shopping. Places like rockauto.com for auto parts are super competitive and offer a massive inventory (what a great acquisition it would be for AMZN to break into the auto parts sector). Newegg/MicroCenter for PC parts, Costco, etc.

    But over all I can't remember the last time I had to return anything and my experience over the last 20 years has been a positive one.

  • by whoisjuan on 10/10/20, 4:58 PM

    While this may seem shocking, logistically it makes sense. It’s potentially easier to destroy or dump a returned product than re-preparing it for sale.

    I went out on a date with a program manager for one of Amazon’s return programs and she told me her job was basically finding out ways to repurpose returns as cheaply as possible. Apparently destroying and dumping it’s the easiest and least resource consuming way to deal with returns.

    In a similar note, search for Amazon Warehouse. That’s one of their programs for returned merchandise and sometimes I have found insane deals there. But you gotta check often.

  • by canada_dry on 10/10/20, 7:00 PM

    Everyone in the chain is complicit... people who carelessly order things, suppliers who decide it's cheaper to just let Amazon handle their returns, and Amazon who is stuck dealing with returns.

    If we're going to fix something, it really aught to be food waste!

    The amount of food that gets disposed of daily - while millions go hungry - is humanities greatest issue - not unwanted coveralls.

  • by tomarr on 10/10/20, 4:25 PM

    The GPS tracker technique does not seem foolproof, basic QA on returned goods would likely be trashing the GPS trackers.
  • by azinman2 on 10/10/20, 4:41 PM

    So this was a lot about Amazon, but it leaves out comparisons to any other store. What do others do? Is this the common practice?
  • by cbanek on 10/10/20, 5:16 PM

    I feel the worst about mattresses getting returned. I'm tempted to buy a new bed (it's just that time), but not being able to try them out, I'd feel bad returning one if I didn't like it. Those things are huge and hard to recycle, and you can't exactly resell them.
  • by ummonk on 10/11/20, 2:29 AM

    > Kevin Lyons, an associate professor at Rutgers University in New Jersey who specializes in supply chain management and environmental policy, says that 30 to 40 per cent of all online purchases are sent back. That number drops to less than ten per cent for merchandise bought at bricks and mortar stores.

    What the hell? I rarely return either, but find myself returning online merchandise even less often than brick and mortar simply because of the inconvenience of managing packing and shipping.

    How are people returning 30-40% of everything they purchase online?

  • by msie on 10/10/20, 5:38 PM

    At this point I assume massive waste in every industry until proven otherwise. Massive waste in the food industry really distresses me.
  • by bergstromm466 on 10/11/20, 9:59 AM

    I made this comment in reply to another post:

    The important part of this article is the critique of the powerful monopolistic corporate player, Amazon:

    "[Amazon] did write the playbook on free returns, says Jason Goldberg, chief commerce strategy officer at Publicis Groupe, a global marketing and advertising agency.

    The tactic of enticing customers to buy more than they need and return what they don't want "has had tragic repercussions for the environment and business," he says."

    It seems to me like the HN community sometimes nitpicks over tiny details and fails to take part in the larger systemic critiques. Are there others who are also frustrated by the lack of larger, systemic critiques?

  • by spcebar on 10/10/20, 8:17 PM

    A Staples by where I used to live threw anything returned away. Used to dumpster dive there and got all kinds of interesting things. Perfectly good stationary, an expensive suitcase, an office chair, a PC (which was on the of cash registers but still neat).
  • by decko on 10/10/20, 4:44 PM

    > Fulfillment by Amazon Donations, which Amazon says will help sellers send returns directly to charities instead of disposing of them.

    So the seller ends up having to take the loss?

  • by bpodgursky on 10/10/20, 9:55 PM

    As someone who never, ever returns online purchases (even in the 1/100 cases where I'm genuinely unhappy with what I got), I would love the ability to shop at a 10-20% discount at an online store (or some setting on Amazon) which completely disallows returns. You buy it, you keep it. Always.

    Would love to stop subsidizing the indecisive, the scammers, the people who can't bother to research products before they buy, etc.

  • by pavelevst on 10/10/20, 7:41 PM

    It could be that tracker was noticed and sent to landfill, not the item
  • by xyst on 10/10/20, 11:07 PM

    I hate to say it, but the decadence of first world countries is truly a burden on this planet.
  • by clon on 10/10/20, 9:47 PM

    How did they make sure that the entire backpack was returned, not just the tracker tossed?
  • by cwoolfe on 10/10/20, 10:26 PM

    Why not have the customer hold onto the return item until another customer buys it as used on amazon, and the return label ships directly to the new customer? Sure people could send unacceptable returns, but couldn't that be mitigated by losing the privilege to return in that way with amazon? It still seems better than the alternatives of throwing it away.
  • by blondie9x on 10/10/20, 4:34 PM

    We have known for awhile that online shopping is hurting the planet. Alibaba and Amazon are a huge part of the problem as the biggest online retailer in the world. with packaging thrown out and returns often destroyed. There are efforts to mitigate this but they are insufficient and need to be further developed.
  • by drummer on 10/10/20, 5:29 PM

    Rhetorical question: if the returns are unsellable, why don't they give them away for free to the poor?
  • by dasudasu on 10/10/20, 6:36 PM

    Amazon disposes of it, but how much is the manufacturer involved? Who foots the bill in the end?
  • by coding123 on 10/10/20, 6:26 PM

    Learning about this, I'm half-way tempted to return an empty box and donate the actual item to charity. I mean, I usually get my refund 5 minutes after the UPS guy scans the label. Do you think they do anything beyond that?
  • by fergie on 10/10/20, 7:41 PM

    Theres a guy on youtube who buys Amazon returns by the pallet and then sells it on. Its quite eye-opening. http://resalerabbit.com/
  • by JoeAltmaier on 10/10/20, 10:31 PM

    I wonder if Amazon will pursue these folks - they ordered items intending to return them. Got to violate some terms and conditions somewhere.
  • by GekkePrutser on 10/10/20, 6:32 PM

    Huh I thought these would be resold as "Amazon Warehouse" returned items. I've bought several of those and they were definitely used.
  • by mensetmanusman on 10/10/20, 8:24 PM

    With the amount of food and goods wasted (probably approaching 50%), it’s amazing we have an economy where half the people’s effort is wasted.
  • by marvindanig on 10/10/20, 5:14 PM

    Now compare these lies of recycling goods and plastic with the other lie of harvesting trees for paper pulp. ;-)

    It's a perfect animal farm!

  • by jf on 10/10/20, 4:16 PM

    To save you the trouble of loading the page: the Amazon returns they tracked for this article ended up in a landfill.
  • by sudoaza on 10/10/20, 4:52 PM

    I guess this means you can buy stuff, return a box with trash inside, get the money back and keep the stuff. Sweet!
  • by blondie9x on 10/10/20, 10:08 PM

    Amazon prime creates bad shopping habits and Amazon needs to be responsible for the extra emissions and returns.
  • by S_A_P on 10/10/20, 4:41 PM

    If the return rate is truly 30-40% wouldn’t this be easily proven by quarterly income statements? Even at the generous assumption that every item is sold for double the wholesale price if 1 of 3 packages are returned and tossed/recycled or otherwise not resold I can’t imagine Amazon being even close to profitable as a retailer. I know Amazon was famously unprofitable for years but those days are gone now right?
  • by chrisseaton on 10/10/20, 4:48 PM

    How do these trackers read a GPS signal from inside these bulky items, plus packaged, plus inside a building?
  • by neom on 10/10/20, 6:02 PM

    It's insane to me that ONE of their returns traveled 105 miles around the city of Toronto alone.
  • by sjg007 on 10/10/20, 10:07 PM

    I think the majority of people don’t return stuff because it is such a pain to find a UPS store.
  • by jmnicolas on 10/10/20, 7:33 PM

    When I called them last week, they offered to repair a faulty hard drive (clicking noises, SMART errors through the roof) ...

    If they try to repair an irreparable hard drive but throw perfectly good items like a bag they're quite dysfunctional.

    And their inability to send all the ordered items in ONE package is irritating too.

  • by ComodoHacker on 10/10/20, 10:30 PM

    The pinnacle of consumerism!
  • by ryanmarsh on 10/10/20, 4:50 PM

    Jain likes the convenience of online shopping but worries about Amazon's carbon footprint.

    What is this article about exactly?

  • by henvic on 10/10/20, 5:00 PM

    Am I the only one worried about:

    * The privacy of consumers who might eventually buy some of the stuff stuffed with their trackers.

    * The scene at 1:49 where it appears they put a tracker in a plastic bag inside something like a coffee kettle.

    * Sticking a tracker to a kid's toy.

    What the hell is wrong with these people? I get they wanted to do a great investigation, but this seems so wrong to me...

  • by crazygringo on 10/10/20, 4:22 PM

    > The tactic of enticing customers to buy more than they need and return what they don't want "has had tragic repercussions for the environment and business," he says.

    That's disingenuous. I've never purchased "more than I need" from Amazon. But probably about 10% of items purchased for the first time simply aren't as advertised -- not Amazon's fault, but the manufacturer's. They don't meet the needs you bought them for, so you have no choice but to return them. And of course clothing is notorious, because manufacturers still insist on making up their own idiosyncratic definitions of S/M/L, when simply providing measurements in inches or centimeters would fix most problems. (Also color-accurate photography, for when the item listed and photographed as red turns out to be orange-pink.)

    > "You're lucky if half of all returns can still be sold as new, so a huge amount of merchandise has to be dispositioned via some other means — liquidation, refurbishment, recycling, or landfill."

    Yup, that's just how it works. That's why I buy a lot of stuff "open box" off eBay -- especially things like dongles, adapters, cheap peripherals. They all come from returns from places like Amazon and Best Buy, but are half the price. It's great.

    This article isn't surprising, except for one data point about a single bag that wasn't resold. But they're probably hiring minimum-wage workers to categorize returns, who make errors.

    There isn't really anything new in this article.