from Hacker News

What's it like to be an Octopus? (2017)

by samgilb on 8/10/20, 2:38 PM with 162 comments

  • by jbotz on 8/10/20, 3:57 PM

    It's an old trope in Sci Fi that alien intelligences would be so different from us that we couldn't even begin to comprehend them. Octopuses belie that idea... although we share some DNA, our last common ancestors barely had a nervous system, so any similarities in cognition between us really are the product of paralllel evolution. And since their environments are also very different from ours, this parallel evoution clearly hints that there is something universal in this consciousness we share, something that seems to want to evolve to similar parameters given half a chance.

    We don't know how common or rare sentience and consciousness are in the Universe, but because of the Octopus I believe that if ever we do encounter non-terrestrial sentience we'll have no trouble recognizing it and will find that we have enough in common to establish communications and a relationship. Although first we'd do well to do a better job at communicating with and respecting the many non-human sentient beings on this planet.

  • by quercusa on 8/10/20, 3:53 PM

    The novel Blindsight by Peter Watts considers the issues humans would face in contact with similarly alien aliens. It's an intriguing read.

    Available under CC: https://rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm#CC

  • by deforciant on 8/10/20, 4:07 PM

  • by nabla9 on 8/10/20, 4:52 PM

    Octopus intelligence is phenomenal achievement when you consider the restrictions they have:

    1. No social interaction or learning. Octopuses[1] live alone.

    2. Short life span. Most of them live only few years in the wild.

    ----

    [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plura...

  • by gregfjohnson on 8/10/20, 6:41 PM

    I wonder about the relationship between consciousness and Turing completeness. Although we don't have infinite tapes inside our heads, it seems that one could imagine a succession of progressively richer finite approximations to Turing-style computational universality. Perhaps "degrees on consciousness" as discussed in the article have to do with the depth of the approximation a creature with a given physiology can make to computational universality. I believe that the independent evolution of eyes resulted in surprising similarities, because of the underlying physics of photons, and the constraints placed on solving the same problems of interpreting streams of photons. It might be that there is some similar unifying computational phenomenon that drives evolution to similar mutually intelligible consciousnesses even via radically distinct evolutionary paths.

  • by mindfulplay on 8/10/20, 7:04 PM

    Fantastic article. Superb writing and makes me ponder about our species in general.

    I do have a general take on how humans perceive or judge other organisms through a very human lens. We characterize organisms based on their social structure, longevity, 'cleverness' etc. While looking at how humans compare with octopuses at a meta level, octopuses seem to be not waging wars, more peaceful, seem to have survived for more than 600 millions years. I wonder if human beings would have a similar track record: looks like humans are well into destroying their own kind and the environment faster than most other creatures.

    At the same time human beings seem ill equipped to judge or characterize 'alien' lives: we often want to 'make contact' or have a communication or social channel with aliens. As if a show of our mental power and social structure is the most important aspect..

    Just looking at how octopuses are being measured by humans, it feels rather silly the kind of approaches humans use to evaluate other species let alone aliens.

  • by felbane on 8/10/20, 4:20 PM

    For some reason I really expected this to be an interview with Danny Carey.

    Parallel evolution is amazing. Developing complex communication between human and octopus would be an amazing feat and would likely answer some of our questions about the nature of consciousness.

  • by gooseus on 8/10/20, 10:48 PM

    Does anyone know if there has ever been experimentation with training octopuses to use some kind of user interface (buttons, dials, sliders, joysticks) with a grayscale screen or some other kind of modulated output to solve problems for rewards?

    Could an octopus learn to play Super Mario Bros or Pac-Man to beat levels for crab?

    If we could find a reliable way to teach an input language to an octopus we could start probing what classes of problems are easier or harder for them solve. We could develop octopus input devices that maximize the size of the 'octo-bus', and find ways to give them an "immersive experience" by modulating their environment (temp, salinity, pH, etc) as feedback.

    Anyone with me on this? I haven't found anything, but I don't know if my "dorking" is up to par.

  • by agency on 8/10/20, 4:29 PM

    Something that totally blew my mind is that octopuses seem to react to MDMA in ways similar to us - socially disinhibited, acting "cuddly": https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/20/6487881...

  • by pavanky on 8/10/20, 6:34 PM

    If anyone is else is interested in thought experiments on how other forms of intelligence / sapience may evolve, try to read "Children of Time" and "Children of Ruin" by Adrian Tchaikovsky.

    Also if anyone else has other books that follow similar themes, please recommend!

  • by qwertygnu on 8/10/20, 5:23 PM

    This was a really awesome article! Very well written and utterly thought-provoking.

    Also this blurb from the author's website is amazing[1]:

    > To research her books, films, and articles, Sy Montgomery has been chased by a silverback gorilla, embrced by a Giant Pacific Octopus and undressed by an orangutan. But she is perhaps best known for her 14 year love affair with Christopher Hogwood, a runt piglet who grew to a 750-pound great Buddha master.

    [1] http://symontgomery.com/

  • by dschuetz on 8/10/20, 8:52 PM

    The article is a good read. I was left with even more questions: How come that most documentaries explain the vibrant and undulating colors as some sort of communication, when in actuality there is no evidence that they can observe colors? Even more interesting is the question where do the chromatophores get their color "data" since there are no apparent color receptors in their eyes or skin so that they can mimic their surroundings for camouflage?

  • by pbk1 on 8/10/20, 4:23 PM

    The opening of this article references Hokusai's "Great Wave" woodblock print. There's an easter egg in this print I never noticed, which is that Mount Fuji is nestled in the trough of the wave.

    Learned this from a great NYT article on Hokusai focusing on another print from the same series: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/07/arts/design/h...

  • by cvaidya1986 on 8/10/20, 4:31 PM

    The original 8X engineers.

  • by alikim on 8/10/20, 4:57 PM

    I strongly recommend both of these books. The Soul of an Octopus is more anecdotal and Other Minds is more academic; in sum they offer not just a fascinating picture of octopuses, but a larger discussion on consciousness and foreign intelligence.

  • by 40four on 8/10/20, 6:15 PM

    I've always been amazed and fascinated by octopuses. Their intelligence, the way they can manipulate their bodies. Most of all the almost instantaneous ability to change their skin color and camouflage with their environment. I highly recommend this episode of PBS 'Nature' I recently watched.

    "Octopus: Making Contact" https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/octopus-making-contact-y8dya...

  • by pengaru on 8/10/20, 6:41 PM

    Radiolab did a great "Octomom" episode that seems apropos here, definitely worth a listen.

    https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio.wnyc.org/radi...

  • by mindfulplay on 8/10/20, 10:22 PM

    One amazing snippet that is contradictory to human beings: octopuses are color-blind across their entire body (with their physical eyes as well as their "body" eyes) but they are excellent camouflage artists! How is that even possible. Don't you need to perceive color to be able to take it??

  • by TheOtherHobbes on 8/10/20, 4:17 PM

    I don't think we'll be doing well with SETI until we have a better understanding of the animals around us. This planet is teeming with non-mammalian intelligence and mostly we either ignore it, are irritated by it, or try to eat it.

  • by cesarito on 8/11/20, 2:45 AM

    Reminds me that this youtuber still is profiting from these animals:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NcChbIdrdaA

  • by codeisawesome on 8/11/20, 11:45 AM

    Being an octopus is intelligent and great until Korean people decide to pluck you as a baby out of the ocean and boil you alive for fun (and laugh as you struggle in unimaginable pain).

  • by inopinatus on 8/11/20, 12:41 PM

    When asked if I have any dietary requirements, I’ll always respond, I don’t eat octopus. Tales of Diogenes aside, this is why. I don’t eat my peers.

  • by neonate on 8/10/20, 6:25 PM

  • by TedDoesntTalk on 8/10/20, 8:24 PM

    > Octopuses are the closest we can come, on earth, to knowing what it might be like to encounter intelligent aliens.

    Wow

  • by gigatexal on 8/10/20, 4:01 PM

    If I could I’d come back as an octopus. What awesome, majestic creatures.

  • by hinkley on 8/10/20, 5:49 PM

    I used to know someone whose favorite "are they kidding or serious" joke was that octopi were aliens.

    This often lead to a discussion about how we'd be an aquatic civilization of octopi lived much longer than they do.

  • by coldtea on 8/10/20, 6:47 PM

    It's handy.

  • by mellosouls on 8/10/20, 4:52 PM

    I can't read the article at the moment to judge, but going by some of the comments, the original famous essay of this ilk (exploring the idea of consciousness by imagining experiencing life as an very different species) might be of interest.

    https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3...

  • by mellosouls on 8/10/20, 4:49 PM

    Paywalled. Please will the OP or somebody provide a readable link.

    Edit:

    For anybody who had the same problem as me, try using a different device or privacy mode.

    I can't access it on my PC due to the paywall but can on my phone (same, synced browser).

  • by papito on 8/10/20, 4:37 PM

    Now do raccoons do raccoons!