from Hacker News

Mormonism and Multilevel Marketing Companies

by cdepman on 7/18/20, 3:30 PM with 104 comments

  • by bcatanzaro on 7/18/20, 5:10 PM

    Stay-at-home moms are another big reason for this besides the missionary experience. It is very common for Utah Mormon women to stay at home raising children.

    The traditional full-time workplace totally disrespects that choice. SAHMs are not compensated for the hard work they do. It makes sense they would look for something part time to do to make a little money and think about something besides kids. But how can they do that in the traditional American workplace that expects 40+ hours a week and a resume with no gaps?

    Many MLMs are built for SAHMs. They build on SAHM social networks and many of them are explicitly about making domestic life more bearable (kitchen gadgets, home goods, clothes, beauty and health products).

    I think there’s a story here about SAHMs as a neglected overlooked and disrespected population, and how MLMs fill a need for them.

    BTW, I hate MLMs generally, I’m just pointing out that Mormon missionary service isn’t the only thing attracting MLMs to Utah.

  • by jawns on 7/18/20, 4:26 PM

    You are going to find this effect in any strong community where social capital is present and influential. There's nothing specific to Utah's LDS community that leads to MLM peddling/participation. It's just that this community is one type of community where social capital plays a large role.

    By the way, tech communities are not immune to it. It might not be MLM, but think about how frequently you encounter tech products and services that seem to be flying on nothing but hype and charisma.

  • by themodelplumber on 7/18/20, 4:12 PM

    Data point: I once went to an "employment presentation" by a member of local Mormon leadership, when I lived in PDX. The meeting was held at his large and rather conspicuous residence. The event had been pitched to church members.

    It turned out to be a presentation on a health products MLM with some crazy amount of buy-in required up front. The presenter had a huge amount of the social capital that the research talks about. He was very charismatic in addition to holding the religious rank, so to speak.

    Also relevant to another article on the front page, his wife walked in mid-presentation to show us the MLM pills she was taking to fight cancer.

    I was very angry to realize that the meeting was MLM related. Meanwhile the local employment center run by the same church was staffed by a member of the boards of several high-profile fast food chains (you'd know them), and he basically showed us that there was a fax machine and computer we could use. He was a nice guy but this was very frustrating in comparison to the comparatively warm and attentive MLM pitch.

  • by sicromoft on 7/18/20, 4:15 PM

  • by cornstalks on 7/18/20, 4:16 PM

    I don't have access to the paper so I can't comment on its entirety, but the abstract is spot on in my personal experience.

    One thing not mentioned in the abstract (but perhaps it's mentioned in the paper) is how many missionaries do door-to-door sales when the return home. Many don't, but a nontrivial number do. I suspect that that missionaries play a role in the popularity of MLMs: either because of former missionaries joining MLMs (because some missionary skillsets are applicable to MLM marketing/selling), or because a nontrivial number of people in Utah have a soft spot for missionaries and I think MLMs often exploit that same soft spot.

  • by umvi on 7/18/20, 4:29 PM

    This is recognized and lampooned even from within the LDS community.

    For example, in the LDS film "the RM", the main character's parents are running a ridiculous MLM scheme called "LD3" (Latter Day Discount Distributors).

  • by jopolous on 7/18/20, 4:28 PM

    I live in Utah, can confirm this is a huge thing here. Fortunately (I say fortunately because I hate MLMs) the leaders of the dominant religion here have been pretty vocal about being a little smarter with "shady investments", and I think some of them are trying to allude to MLMs. Hopefully they just say it outright some day

  • by dgellow on 7/18/20, 4:30 PM

    That’s interesting in the context of this other post also submitted to HN:

    “How Mormons Built the Next Silicon Valley While No One Was Looking”

    Direct link: https://marker.medium.com/how-mormons-built-the-next-silicon...

    HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23882224

  • by tyingq on 7/18/20, 4:07 PM

    They don't say it explicitly in the summary, but there's obvious power structures in play as well...real pressure to participate.

    I remember once getting a haircut, and the barber starting to pitch me an MLM holistic health thing in the middle of the haircut. Tried my best to say no in the politest way.

  • by base698 on 7/18/20, 4:29 PM

    "Under the Banner of Heaven" explains this effect a bit.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CZCGPUA/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

  • by sjansen on 7/18/20, 4:25 PM

    I grew up outside Utah, but have lived here now for 20 years.

    To me, the abstract reads like "water is wet". Both true and obvious to anyone experiencing it. Because I'm not willing to willing to pay for the actual paper, I don't know if it contains any inaccuracies or misunderstandings—there often are when describing Utah's peculiar culture—but scanning the citations it appears very well researched.

    While MLMs are unreasonably successful in Utah, don't get the wrong idea. In my experience, the majority of Utahns dislike them just as much as everyone else. It's just easier for MLMs starting in Utah to target the willing minority and expand globally.

    Update:

    Having read the paper thanks to the free links in the comments, I can say it's pretty accurate. The description of Church programs is a bit idealized compared to messy reality, but that's to be expected. I really only disagree with one statement:

    > In addition to the social capital and cultural explanations, legal institutions may also be contributing to the prevalence of MLMs in Utah.

    It's a generous statement, but as a local I believe the opposite to be true. The prevalence of MLMs has co-opted legal institutions resulting in more friendly laws.

  • by prpl on 7/18/20, 4:20 PM

    It’s not purely based on religious structure and institution, it’s also a convenient “side hustle” for large families (though that’s a religious consequence), especially with the common stay-at-home mom in Utah - Utah county in particular.

  • by jtr1 on 7/18/20, 5:08 PM

    I'm unable to open this without permission, but I'm curious about the extent to which they interrogate the combination of rigid gender roles and wage stagnation.

    I'm not mormon, but grew up in an evangelical christian community that held many similar cultural ideals, especially the importance of maintaining a "traditional" nuclear family, where the father is expected to be the primary breadwinner and the mother is expected to play the role of homemaker and often home educator.

    I'd speculate that a big factor in its adoption is that it's an income supplemental that allows you to continue childcare or homeschooling.

  • by Guy2020 on 7/18/20, 4:14 PM

    Is there a way to read the full paper? Seems like a fascinating read. ( not sure what it has to do with tech though )

  • by acjohnson55 on 7/18/20, 5:24 PM

    I know very little about life in Utah, but it seems to me that MLMs provide a way to monetize social capital, for those who wield it. It's well known that many MLMs do an insignificant amount of sales outside of the org, and mostly serve as a pyramid scheme, where earlier players are compensated by the startup costs of later players. Most players will never recoup their startup investment by recruiting or external sales.

    It strikes me that the mid-level players who make it to profitability probably have enough skills that they would make far more money in something closer to a regular corporate or sales environment. If handy work and piece work were the original gig economy, and the app-driven gig economy is the modern incarnation, MLMs are the intermediate wave.

  • by weeksie on 7/18/20, 4:34 PM

    Passes the sniff test. I spent a good deal of time in SLC when I was 18/19. This was the 90s and I remember even back then that almost all of the classified job ads were setups to entice you into a MLM presentation.

  • by double0jimb0 on 7/18/20, 4:13 PM

    Also industries that require the ability to relentlessly “sell, sell, sell”.

    Many political advertising and online DTC mattresses companies (to name a couple) are based Utah.

  • by coliveira on 7/18/20, 7:33 PM

    This is a well noted connection between MLM and religious fundamentalism.

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2018/02/28/ov...

  • by cookiecaper on 7/18/20, 4:17 PM

    I've got to commend the OP here for having the guts to title this appropriately whereas Cambridge titled it "Institutions, the social capital structure, and multilevel marketing companies" when the abstract states that they explicitly (exclusively?) focus on MLMs in relation to Utah/Mormonism.

  • by aj7 on 7/18/20, 5:09 PM

    This is common knowledge in the U.S. Of more interest to us is “Mormonism and Intel Corporation.”

  • by ineedasername on 7/18/20, 5:45 PM

    TLDR: Mormanism is a very missionary-driven religion. Success in MLM's requires a similar missionary-style dynamic. Therefore Mormanism is fertile ground for MLM's.

  • by bluedino on 7/18/20, 5:08 PM

    Herbalife is very popular in Hispanic church communities in Chicago, Texas, etc. John Oliver did a story on how 60-80% of new members were Latino.

    https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2013-feb-15-la-fi-he...

  • by peter_d_sherman on 7/18/20, 5:52 PM

    >"In multilevel marketing companies (MLMs), member-distributors earn income from selling products and recruiting new members. Successful MLMs require a social capital structure where members can access and mobilize both strong and weak social ties. Utah has a disproportionate share of MLM companies located in the state and a disproportionate number of MLM participants. We argue that Utah's dominant religious institutions have led to the emergence of a social capital structure, making MLMs particularly viable. Utah is the most religiously homogeneous state; roughly half its population identifies as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The LDS Church's institutions foster a social capital structure where (almost all) members have access to and can leverage social capital in all its forms. LDS institutions encourage members to make meaningful social connections characterized by trust and reciprocity with other church members in local neighborhoods and across the world."

    I intuited this interesting relationship when I worked in Utah for an MLM in 2007-2008.

    But MLM's and LDS -- is not the end-all understanding of that relationship!

    You see, if you wanted the bigger picture, the larger understanding, you'd compare the above things with Corporate Hierarchies, Government Hierarchies (foreign and domestic), Social Hierarchies, Financial Hierarchies, and even such things as the hierarchies of Ancient Rome (probably the biggest MLM (and later in its history) Ponzi Scheme that ever existed(!), in that the earlier you were a settler, the more you were rewarded (earlier settlers and their descendant families became Rome's Patrician class, at the top of the social hierarchy), while latecomers to that party got increasingly smaller shares of land, property, privilege, etc. ("Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup" -- to quote the Mel Brooks film, "High Anxiety" <g>))

    Also, you'd clearly define MLM Vs. Ponzi schemes -- they're basically the exact same thing, except that one has an underlying good, service, or something of value which is fairly exchanged, whereas in a Ponzi scheme, the underlying good, service or value either doesn't exist, or exists only in a partial, malformed state. (That is, the value exchange in transactions is asymmetric -- due to fraud of some sort...)

    But let's kick those understandings up a notch!

    Let's throw some gasoline on that fire!

    To this ecclectic mix, to really get an understanding, you'd throw on some Jordan Peterson, specifically what he says about Dominance Hierarchies in society!

    And then to season it, you'd add to this some Adam Smith, who can probably be said to be not only the guy that codified Capitalism, but could safely be said to have been the ultimate master of games relating to anything having to do with finance, but more broadly, with the broadest definition of capital.

    Basically what Sun Tsu was to War -- Adam Smith was to Capital, in its broadest definition.

    So, if you really wanted an understanding, you'd take all of these ecclectic ingredients, mix them all together, season, heat and serve!

    But this article is a great first step in that direction!

  • by gigatexal on 7/18/20, 4:41 PM

    You can be Mormon and also not engage in MLM. Nothing about being Mormon means you have to be stupid enough to fall for such scams.

  • by tomrod on 7/18/20, 5:16 PM

    Exmormon and former missionary here. Pretty much, makes sense. And that's all that I can charitably contribute to the conversation, IMO.

  • by johnohara on 7/18/20, 4:56 PM

    My uncle was raised LDS. When you lapse from the faith but remain friendly and on good terms with active members you are considered a "Jack Mormon," which he classified himself.

    Coffee is a prohibited food for active members which is why he would occasionally send me a pound of Jack Mormon Coffee on my birthday.

    https://jackmormoncoffee.com/

    Great guy, gracious, engaging, and always liked to laugh.

  • by WhompingWindows on 7/18/20, 4:19 PM

    Religion and MLM go hand in hand, that's interesting.

    I will push the concept further: Are religions another form of MLM?

    In both cases, we are trading our time, effort, and money for status within a community; there are hierarchical ranks, obtained by recruiting more people and proselytizing effectively...and MLMs and religion both seek to answer tough questions, whether that be creation or health, salvation or financial freedom. And both MLMs and religion rely upon false premises, mythology, peer pressure, and irrational fears.

    Lastly, If MLMs or religion had extremely solid evidence behind them, would they truly be MLMs or religion? This seems the most important linkage, these institutions (and many others) prey upon inherent weaknesses in the human psyche for their own advancement.

    Downvote brigade has arrived, I love receiving downvotes for playing devil's advocate; respond to me if you're disagreeing, don't downvote and bury what you dislike.