from Hacker News

Zettlr – FOSS markdown editor for personal knowledge management and publishing

by DerWOK on 7/3/20, 1:24 PM with 261 comments

  • by bloopernova on 7/3/20, 1:45 PM

    I'm really happy that the "knowledge base management" type of tools are getting a lot more attention these days. In my opinion, the more brains that look at this area, the better the whole ecosystem will get.

    I'll have to download this and give it a try, and compare it to my current workflow.

    (I use org-roam on Emacs. I'm not sure if people are sick of org-mode and Emacs being mentioned on HN? I worry about becoming the stereotype of "how do you tell if someone is a Vegan (or uses Emacs)?" "Don't worry, they'll tell you". I don't want to derail any discussion though!)

    For those of you wondering about Zettelkasten and knowledge management, I suggest you start by reading "How to Take Smart Notes" by Sönke Ahrens: https://takesmartnotes.com/ and https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/34507927-how-to-take-...

  • by lifeisstillgood on 7/3/20, 2:27 PM

    I think this trend of better knowledge tools is missing two very important pieces of human nature

    1. If we have time to enter something into a knowledge base of any kind - then we have time to just jot it on a piece of paper.

    2. If we dont have time (or think it is important at that moment) then what solves the problem for us is not a knowledge base, but search.

    You see the thing about Google and Facebook etc, is that if they were collecting all this information about me, and it was treated like medical information about me it would be far more useful to me (and far less useful to Advertisers).

    I want a web browser that remembers every single page I have visited (#) and then lets me search them. Then someone could write a spaced reminder thingy for me - spent more than 5 minutes on a web page did he - he will want to refresh that page in 2 weeks and then 4 months.

    Yes, knowledge bases are excellent for clearly defined study efforts - like y'know, university, but for the rest of life, explicit note taking is a cost that we need some activation energy barrier for.

    Put it this way, once upon a time I had a study book for a new programming language, and i took notes of interesting examples on a ring binder. But the last time I learnt a new language I just relied on Google finding me the relevant StackOverflow pages - my cost/benefit line had changed.

    (And notes just got dumped into a text file.)

    (#) Ok maybe not those pages

  • by unsungNovelty on 7/3/20, 3:04 PM

    If anybody is sad about Zettlr not having the graph view of like the one in Obsidian or RoamResearch, please be patient. A PR is already open for it. -> https://github.com/Zettlr/Zettlr/pull/921

    OpenSource powaaaaa! :)

  • by dmytton on 7/3/20, 2:48 PM

    Note-taking seems to be a hot topic lately. I used Apple Notes for a long time because it was very lightweight and minimalist, but recent releases of macOS have been very buggy, so I decided to review all the options. I wrote this up at https://davidmytton.blog/the-best-note-taking-apps-for-mac-m... which has become one of the most trafficked post on my blog in the last few months!

    The key for me is a) plain text files I can manage myself i.e. no database or mandatory custom sync; b) markdown.

    Apps will come and go. You might decide to switch platforms and maybe a new editor will come along sometime. This means you want a format that can be opened by anything (plain text) but with lightweight markup that the editor can parse to make it look nice, but you can also parse with your eyes and get a reasonable sense of the document structure (markdown).

    Then it's all about search. There's no point making notes if you can't find them. This is where something more than Markdown - that allows you to link notes - is handy. It's what is appearing more and more in the likes of Roam, Obsidian, etc.

    I ultimately chose iA Writer on macOS because it is lightweight and really nicely designed, plus has good native support for Markdown. I sync using OneDrive but you can use anything because they're all individual files. iA Writer is also native, and I find most Electron apps to be slow and/or buggy. There are exceptions e.g. VS Code, but I prefer native where possible.

  • by wooptoo on 7/3/20, 4:05 PM

    I can recommend Zim wiki which is a GTK+ desktop app that works as a personal wiki / notebook. Has a WYSIWYG editor and can export to different formats, it can even render the wiki as html and serve it. Also supports plugins for extra things like tables and charts if you wish. You can have separate notebooks for each project like home/work/etc. You can commit to git from the UI, have git hooks set to automatically push to a remote on every commit. Not fancy but very functional and pleasant to use. https://zim-wiki.org/
  • by codr7 on 7/3/20, 3:01 PM

    Two words, Org mode:

    https://orgmode.org/

    Add Magit and you're good to go:

    https://github.com/magit/magit

    Emacs is a quirky beast, but these two packages alone make it worth the effort to learn.

  • by sanchitnevgi on 7/3/20, 2:14 PM

    I've been using Obsidian (https://obsidian.md/) for the past few weeks and it has been really great.
  • by darkstarsys on 7/3/20, 5:00 PM

    Not a popular opinion I'm sure, but I'm all-in on OneNote. Works everywhere (at least basically) and it is just so rich. Full pen support for drawing (vital for me), tables, equations (sort of), multiple text blocks on a page (also key!), internal & external links, fast search (as of last year). Search is good enough that I rarely use tags anymore.

    Yes, it's totally vendor locked in and I do hate that. And no syntax highlighting for code is annoying. Lack of markdown is a pain. And it's bug-ridden and closed source.

    But I've been using it for my work daily journal and knowledge capture for a few years now, and it's so fluid and easy to jot down or scribble a quick note and find it later that it's hard for me to imagine going back to a basic Markdown editor. It's the closest thing I've found to a searchable paper lab notebook.

    And btw I'm a hardcore Emacs user for the last 40 years. Org mode is great, but for me, OneNote kills it in expressiveness and fluidity of idea capture and recall.

    If someone makes a Markdown editor that supports pen/tablet ink drawing and multiple text blocks on a page, I'd be interested.

  • by black_puppydog on 7/3/20, 3:29 PM

    I can't believe nobody bothered to link TiddlyWiki [1] here... Especially since this crowd here should be able to run it directly from npm, which makes it much easier (conceptually, for me) than "a self-modifying html file". :P

    For Zettelkasten (and research more generally) Stroll [2] is a flavour of TiddlyWiki that has many of the features you'd like, including (most crucially for me) backlinks.

    Edit: the reason I brought up TiddlyWiki here is because I tried Zettlr and while I see how some people would like it, I certainly didn't.

    [1]: https://tiddlywiki.com/

    [2]: https://giffmex.org/stroll/stroll.html

  • by douglaswlance on 7/3/20, 2:29 PM

    There is nothing that compares to using your preferred text editor to write personal knowledge documents like this. I swapped over to [Foam](https://foambubble.github.io/foam/) in VSCode recently when it was released, and it's like a breath of fresh air. I can use my keyboard shortcuts, extensions, and snippets. Nothing else can compare.
  • by jtanderson on 7/3/20, 4:38 PM

    I've been a heavy Standard Notes user for a couple years now, and the added function of Zettlr looks extremely appealing to me (images, linking, much nicer rendering, etc.). However, to really give this a test drive to see if it's a suitable replacement, I downloaded all my Standard Notes as plain text and tried importing them. This caused a ton of bugs/errors when trying to navigate and use the results. First, it complained about not being able to detect the file type -- again, these are all plain text that end in .txt... Second, it seems to have a ton of trouble with renaming folders: it works the first time, renames it on the filesystem, but then doesn't keep the change in the app? Then I try to reload and rename the folder back and now it throws null variable errors left and right? Then, I try to create sub-folders to start organizing the mess of notes I just imported and... big choke, can't create the folder, sometimes it gives an error and other times it just does nothing. The performance (speed opening tabs, scrolling notes) seems to degrade quite a bit with the number of notes I have.

    So... this looks like something that could be really great! But there's a lot of friction still to having it get out of the way and let me be organized.

  • by eblanshey on 7/3/20, 3:45 PM

    For the last half a year or so I've been using VNote: https://github.com/tamlok/vnote

    I was really surprised when I discovered it, as I've been looking for the "perfect" note-taking system for a while and VNote was never mentioned. It checks all my boxes: in-place preview of markdown, is open source, automatically copies images to your notes directory, has ability to add file attachments, is customizable with different themes, is programmer-friendly (has VIM-mode), and it's native (no Electron!) And it looks great with the dark theme. It doesn't lock you in to its software as in the end, it's just markdown files and media files.

    It doesn't have Zettelkasten support, but it does do tagging and its search capabilities are comprehensive (includes regex search.)

    I am not affiliated with the project -- just a happy user :)

  • by maddyboo on 7/3/20, 3:23 PM

    Neuron is a new Zettelkasten project that shows a lot of promise. The developer is very active and responsive. I like that it is an editor-independent cli tool, with plugins currently for Vim and Emacs.

    https://neuron.zettel.page/

    https://github.com/srid/neuron

  • by tifadg1 on 7/3/20, 2:49 PM

    Could someone enlighten me what is the biggest advantage or this and similar tools over libreoffice writer? I've been using it extensively for years for technical documentation, have hundreds of bitrot-free documents, and am extensively using:

    * tables (2 or 3 columns depending on type, often using sort by column 1 or column 1+2 to keep relevant information grouped);

    * preset formatting for different styles (snippets, commands);

    * navigation using ToC (on a sideway navigation pane which is always visible);

    * auto-generating anki flashcards from the content with no modifications;

    * inserting external media;

    I've used different methods to keep a single synchronized copy depending on work tech restrictions, i.e. nfs over ssh, sshfs, vpn via vm. Nowadays working from home I just keep everything locally.

    What are the selling points to drop all that and move to something else?

  • by estacado on 7/3/20, 11:51 PM

    I've tried a lot of note-taking apps, I've settled on Simplenote. It's lightweight, syncs, and searchable. It's text-only. I find linking media and other stuff is just cumbersome, and takes a lot of effort to organize when all I want is a quick way to jot down notes. https://simplenote.com/
  • by wenc on 7/3/20, 2:17 PM

    Folks who are familiar with Zettelkasten:

    Would it be correct to say that most of these tools are identical to Wiki software with one exception: the ability to see "what linked to this"?

  • by Grumbledour on 7/7/20, 7:11 PM

    I really struggle with the UI on this one. Some notes:

    - No title bar makes using the window harder than it needs to be.

    - Huge symbols I have to hover over to see what they do + a hamburger menu. A traditional menu would be easier to use for me at least.

    - Speaking of hover, whats with the weird, animated back-button for folders that when it appears overlaps other elements?

    - Font sizes. Really, they seem to big even for me as a visually impaired person

    - General non-nativeness. That Options dialog as a website modal is just weird and jumps around when switching categories.

    I don't mean to be to negative here, maybe I am just getting old, but this really seems not to be my cup of tea, though apart from the UI, I really like the idea and the use of pandoc/latex, YAML Frontmatter, saving as just files etc.

    If this had a more traditional UI and would use less ressources it would come pretty close to a note taking app I often thought about but was to lazy to try my hand at myself.

  • by DerWOK on 7/3/20, 3:27 PM

    Some admin removed the "version 1.7" from the post headline? Why that? The news is that the version 1.7 - after 4 month of work - was just released a few hours ago... ️
  • by sradman on 7/3/20, 1:52 PM

    YAZN (Yet Another Zettelkasten Notes) system. This one is Markdown with YAML Front Matter for metadata and an Electron based editor. Roam, Foam, Zettlr. All of these start with the powerful principle that every document/note should be addressable with its title-slug (wiki like linking). Good stuff.
  • by I_am_tiberius on 7/3/20, 3:29 PM

    Joplin and Standard notes are great as well. I lost one week of data due to some synchronization issue with Joplin though - but the markdown editor is great (they even have a new WYSIWYG editor). Standard notes is good but it's missing good file/image support which is really annoying.
  • by scribu on 7/3/20, 2:14 PM

    The drawback to working directly on Markdown files is that it's hard to synchronize your notes from/to mobile.

    If I didn't care about sync, I would use org-roam or some Vim plugin, personally.

  • by bbx on 7/3/20, 5:37 PM

    One feature I have yet to find in any Markdown editor is a simple "block" mover, which I describe here: https://twitter.com/jgthms/status/1225513837379641350

    Underneath, the data structure would remain straightforward Markdown. So the data wouldn't be stored as separate blocks; the moving would act similarly to Sublime Text's "Swap Line Up/Down".

  • by BasilPH on 7/4/20, 2:47 PM

    If you use Zettlr, or any other editor to create a linked graph of text files, you might be interesting in vizel[0]:

    It visualizes the graph and calculates some stats. I find it useful to track the growth of my Zettelkasten, but also to find notes and components that are unconnected to the rest of the graph.

    I built it to scratch my own itch, but I'm always happy to get feedback.

    [0]: https://github.com/BasilPH/vizel

  • by rvz on 7/3/20, 3:43 PM

    > macOS: "Your system has run out of application memory"

    I just looked at the apps I currently have open and it appears that I have the following running: VSCode, Docker, Slack, Notion, WhatsApp, Discord, Riot, Chrome (70+ Tabs), Skype, and Figma.

    I wondered if my Macbook could tolerate another electron app being installed or if I can open another one without grinding my Macbook to a halt. But again I don't think such apps can even scale with other apps running in the background.

  • by bluenose69 on 7/3/20, 5:58 PM

    I find vimwiki to be quite useful. I like that it uses plain files. It lacks a fancy GUI interface, but I prefer a hands-on-the-keyboard approach, anyway.
  • by bluenose69 on 7/3/20, 6:38 PM

    zettlr does not seem to be able to import markdown files, which is a problem for people like me who have lots of such files. Maybe there is a way around that, but I am not motivated to spend much time seeking it, since I find vimwiki to be sufficient for navigating through links in my files. (Also, vimwiki makes it easy to create links, with the strike of a key.)

    My scheme does not offer me a nice GUI, but I prefer to see simple text anyway, and I like how vimwiki lets me navigate through my cross-linked notes without my fingers leaving the home keys. Markdown permits images, etc., and if I want to see them I can just open a terminal to a subdirectory and use pandoc.

    I don't see a way in vimwiki to get a "what links to this page" item, which I imagine an application like zettlr would offer, but it be easy to write a python script to do that, and to add a a line to my crontab file to update things every so often.

    The good thing about my setup is that the markdown format is not tied to any particular application. That's important, if you want your database of notes to last for a long time.

  • by fluder on 7/3/20, 2:07 PM

    I recommend https://fsnot.es Native and blazing fast for iOS and macOS.
  • by fastball on 7/3/20, 2:57 PM

    Shameless plug: I've been building a similar tool for the past couple years, although it is not FOSS :(

    The major differentiator is that content is based around notecards rather than documents/files, and there are multiple ways to structure these cards.

    The most powerful way to organize things is with multi-parent nesting, where you put cards inside of other cards, and each card can have any number of parents. You can share these cards with others, and they can add their own parents to it that don't interfere with yours, allowing you to have shared cards that exist within entirely different hierarchies that are unique to each individual user.

    That's a feature that I think is unique in the space, but we also have the links/backlinks and tags that you will see elsewhere (though tagging is similarly powerful in that shared cards can have tags that are public vs tags that are private to the user).

    You can check it out here:

    https://supernotes.app

  • by kirubakaran on 7/3/20, 3:48 PM

    Please try my https://histre.com/ if you don't want to manually organize everything. Histre automatically creates a knowledge base out of your bookmarks, notes, highlights, and optionally, your web browsing history. It makes it trivially easy to collaborate and publish.
  • by garfieldnate on 7/4/20, 8:49 AM

    What are the open source options for storing PDF annotations? These are just as important as free-form notes for me.
  • by sitkack on 7/4/20, 5:04 AM

    How do folks incorporate drawings and images into their notes? At least when I used a wiki, I could upload photos as cumbersome as it was, as it is now, I rarely use visual media.

    I found notes on the iphone to be excellent, but the content appears to be locked up inside of apple's swamp. The pdf exports were horrid.

  • by slezyr on 7/3/20, 2:12 PM

    This page loads one CPU to 100% in Firefox
  • by dsissitka on 7/3/20, 2:17 PM

    Announcement with a brief overview of some of the changes in 1.7 here:

    https://www.zettlr.com/post/zettlr-170-released

    Mirror here:

    http://archive.is/usgQ5

  • by threatofrain on 7/3/20, 5:35 PM

    I like the general look and feel but it still feels clunky to switch between the markdown and presentation view, copy-pasting markdown (tables, etc) doesn't work right, and more importantly, Latex is clunky.

    Still waiting for something to best VSC. What do people working with a combination of code and Latex use?

  • by _cowb on 7/3/20, 1:52 PM

    another Electron app, no thanks
  • by 627467 on 7/3/20, 10:41 PM

    I started keeping a hosted tiddlywiki since this new round of zettelkasten rebirth (also, digital garden).

    Additionally I started taking notes on Left https://100r.co/site/left.html

  • by bb88 on 7/3/20, 6:33 PM

    Ultimately as an engineer, what I want to capture are things like schematics, vector diagrams, equations and mechanical drawings of things I have found interesting over my career.

    When I solve a problem I want to have an open source format and viewer(s) for whatever problem domain it's in. So for things like software, that's easy, it's just text. For things like electrical schematics and physics calculations, it's not so easy.

    So then I go down the path of how do I get X to show Y? Like how do I get github to show me a gerber plot from kicad? That's what's really keeping me from using tools like this, native format viewers for the tools we're using.

  • by stakkur on 7/3/20, 4:50 PM

    My cross-platform, time-proof, open source 'personal knowledge management' system:

    1. A folder of markdown and org files

    2. Emacs, gEdit

    3. A notebook

    I get the urge to 'optimize' this sort of thing, but the results seem to be nothing more than visual presentation tweaks.

  • by odilontalk on 7/4/20, 3:17 AM

    I'm using Inkdrop [1] and works really great for me. Knowledge + task management without forcing you any workflow.

    [1]: https://www.inkdrop.app/

  • by fab1an on 7/4/20, 7:13 AM

    Interesting to see this kinds of tools get so much attention in the past couple of months!

    I have seen a lot of buzz around Roam (which is interesting given how outright terrible the initial user experience and conversion funnel is - I did not have the patience and unsub'd immediately..)

    I ended up buying https://zettelkasten.de/the-archive/ Super straightforward Zettelkasten system, and most importantly utilizing plain txt and not some weird proprietary format.

  • by steveklabnik on 7/3/20, 1:56 PM

    It’s great to see such an explosion in tooling here. It also seems really hard to write comparisons since there’s so much development going on. I haven’t tried Zettlr yet, but it’s on my list...
  • by bubersson on 7/4/20, 6:39 PM

    I was using Zettlr for couple months, but some things were a bit clunky and it was missing better key-bindings, etc. Most of what I need is just "show me my folder with .md files and let me edit them nicely".

    For now I ended up with Mark Text (https://marktext.app/), which is open source, cross platform, works nicely and the migration time was zero (folder with .md files ftw).

  • by crooked-v on 7/3/20, 8:01 PM

    I really wish these knowledge base-type apps that have been popping up, like this and Obsidians would use preexisting Markdown and Multimarkdown syntax for links and link references rather than inventing and leaning on their own bits of syntax that aren't usable with other tooling. The whole [[double bracket link]] thing in particular is a pain when none of the cross-referencing supports standard Markdown links between files.
  • by jeffbee on 7/3/20, 5:39 PM

    Is it the generally-accepted practice to run an app like this in a network namespace or sandbox? How do I know it's not pilfering my research? I'd like to use a system like this for my work but I don't see how it can be trusted. I don't have the time to read the source. To be honest, I prefer a hosted solution because then I get a written contract about the privacy of my data.
  • by ChuckMcM on 7/3/20, 8:06 PM

    Okay, I learned a new thing, the Zettelkasten. I've done half of this in my notebooks for a long time (where each page or set of pages that are about a particular topic are linked to the other pages in the notebook also on that topic with a doubly linked list) but the simplicity here is pretty cool.
  • by greenie_beans on 7/3/20, 4:36 PM

    I read some blog post within the past year are so, written by some young engineer for shopify or spotify. They detailed the way they built their zettelkasten. It was well-written and more detailed than most blog posts in that genre. I can’t find it on HN or Google. Anybody know what I’m talking about?
  • by Pmop on 7/3/20, 2:26 PM

    Too bad it is electron.
  • by konart on 7/3/20, 6:00 PM

    Eats up my CPU. I haven't even done any editing, just reading the tutorial and CPU is and 120%
  • by garfieldnate on 7/7/20, 4:58 PM

    I want all of the backend features as a standalone system; I just don't feel comfortable being tied to a single editor, though this one does look pretty great. Are there systems out there with comparable features but which are editor-agnostic?
  • by beattheprose on 7/3/20, 4:11 PM

    I find this amazing for my schoolwork. Being able to write papers with images in a sensible manner using Markdown syntax, all the while citing effortlessly using Zotero, is such a game changer. Huge props.
  • by diimdeep on 7/3/20, 3:33 PM

    It's really hard to beat speed, robustness and flexibility of general purpose editors like Vim and Sublime Text, that's why I don't see myself using something like this for markdown notes.
  • by divbzero on 7/3/20, 11:57 PM

    I’m a fan of Typora [1] which also combines the simplicity of Markdown syntax with a WYSIWYG editor.

    [1]: https://typora.io/

  • by rohithkp on 7/3/20, 3:09 PM

    I use a combination of foam, GitJournal, VSCode. Works well for me.
  • by bassman9000 on 7/3/20, 3:55 PM

    We're a couple years away from merging latex and wordperfect.
  • by mrwesleycrusher on 7/3/20, 4:38 PM

    Outside of looking pretty, how is this better than say, Zim? Not that being pretty doesn't have its own merit, but I just want to know what other advantages this has :)
  • by polskibus on 7/3/20, 1:55 PM

    How does Zettlr compare to https://roamresearch.com/ ?
  • by gorgoiler on 7/4/20, 12:09 AM

    Markdown and AsciiDoc would do well to embrace (1) hashtag syntax and (2) modification times.

    For me, that’s the key to discoverability and categorization.

  • by Keyframe on 7/3/20, 4:44 PM

    So, is this like a Scrivener clone? Scrivener is awesome and one of the things I miss when I dumped MacOS altogether.
  • by m-p-3 on 7/3/20, 6:04 PM

    Is there support for diagrams, like Mermaid? That's something I use with Joplin for my personal knowledgebase.
  • by _pmf_ on 7/3/20, 6:46 PM

    I'm just going to create a repo with a symlink to notepad.exe as Roam alternative and call it a day.
  • by supersrdjan on 7/3/20, 7:26 PM

    What triggered the sudden surge of interest in these knowledge management platforms in your opinion?
  • by jtth on 7/3/20, 7:58 PM

    This will fall on deaf ears, but if you have to title a note, it's not a Zettelkasten.
  • by smhmd on 7/3/20, 4:13 PM

    The hero image is 3104x1876 scaled to 900x500. It's totally butchered and illegible.
  • by someusername99 on 7/11/20, 11:31 AM

    “Highly organized research is guaranteed to produce nothing new.”

    ― Frank Herbert, Dune

  • by thomasfl on 7/3/20, 10:14 PM

    «Developing Open Source Software is a Political Act.» damn sure is!
  • by lastgeniusua on 7/3/20, 2:08 PM

    Downloading page is down now, I guess?
  • by captainredbeard on 7/3/20, 3:15 PM

    Reminds me of VoodooPad
  • by gdevenyi on 7/4/20, 12:39 AM

    What's with all the weird communist references?
  • by app4soft on 7/3/20, 9:02 PM

    > Zettlr is powered by Electron,

    Uh, I would prefer VNote editor + Viki instead.

    [0] https://github.com/tamlok/vnote

    [1] https://github.com/tamlok/viki