by Nyubis on 1/24/20, 6:38 AM with 94 comments
by ChuckMcM on 1/24/20, 7:48 AM
At Google people got "starter projects" I liked this idea to get an idea of what they could do, and its an opportunity to understand what they are good at. I gave the person an assignment that, given their experience, should have been well within their capabilities. They kept not delivering and kept up a steady patter of "knocking down the barriers" communications which, valid or not, got me wondering what was going on with this person. At the one month point I gave them a pretty clear deliverable and worked with them for a timeline for when it would be done. They were "almost" done at the agreed upon time two weeks later, so I asked them to present it one week from that date to the group. The presentation was an epic disaster in terms of not coming close to meeting the deliverable, not showing any development in understanding the problem, and generally being something a new hire could have come up with in less time.
At our 1:1 that week we talked about the deliverable, my expectations given the experience they claimed to have, and what we got. I got a lot of "I just need x, y, and z and then it will be done." kind of discussion. Delving into those needs became "waiting on p, q, and r to deliver this part." kinds of discussions.
At the end of our 1:1 that week I asked them if they were satisfied with their performance. They felt it was ok and would get better with time. I told them I didn't feel we could afford that time and that Friday would be their last day. I was bummed that we wasted nearly 2 months on this person. I don't think anyone in the organization was surprised to see them go.
by rjkennedy98 on 1/24/20, 8:42 PM
When I asked why they did this, to my surprise they said they had been scammed by people who did phone interviews well, and in the on site interviews were completely incapable of answering the same questions at all. They we sure they had been catfished by multiple recruits.
by dpiers on 1/24/20, 8:45 PM
Even in this scenario of blatant fraud, Arram stopped short of explicitly naming the individual. ZeroCater was saved a huge hiring mistake, but 'Sam' probably went on to another company that is clueless to his scam.
This is why I always ask why someone is looking for a new opportunity/why they left their previous position. If the answer doesn't add up, I press for more info. Maybe they're just embarrassed because they were fired? People get fired all the time for reasons that don't necessarily preclude them from being valuable to me. But if they still can't come up with an answer that makes sense, I start "noticing I'm confused".
[1]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01639625.2016.11...
by sumanthvepa on 1/24/20, 7:31 AM
If the person was a fraud, how did he get through the technical and management interviews? Surely talking to someone for 5 mins would help you figure out if they were technically competent. So apparently the interview process had zero decision value. Why bother interviewing candidates then? They should just check references and get on with it. Or fix your interview process.
by NhanH on 1/24/20, 7:42 AM
I do get confused reading this story, at least I wish it continue on for a bit afterward (how was his reaction, other people's reaction. Did you end up hiring someone?)
by rainyMammoth on 1/24/20, 8:02 AM
That's not really what it is. Let's rephrase it as "the demand for engineering managers that pass your completely subjective interview process which is completely unrelated to the job".
by juanbyrge on 1/24/20, 7:44 AM
Jobs had no real engineering experience to bring to the table.
He had a small amount of education from Reed College, but it was
in a completely unrelated major, and he had dropped out early.
But he had a way with words, seemed to have a passion for technology,
and probably lied about having worked at Hewlett-Packard.
"I figured, this guy's gotta be cheap, man. He really doesn't
have much skills at all," Alcorn remembers. "So I figured I'd hire him."by rainyMammoth on 1/24/20, 9:24 PM
If I was the CEO (author of the blog) I would ask myself why I put so many artificial barriers. Why does it matter that he got a similar position for the job if he was going to be good at it anyways?
I'm getting mad at all of those artificial gatekeepers that like to also play victim because "there are not enough talents out there".
Yes that guy lied on his resume and therefore should not be hired (and he should be shamed). But this CEO should also realize that his artificial gate-keeping is the reason why people feel the need to lie.
by kstenerud on 1/24/20, 7:43 AM
> Not only had he lied about his experience, he’d set up fake identities complete with LinkedIn profiles with hundreds of connections, then gotten people who were complicit in his lie to pretend to be those people on the phone.
> I sat down and tried to trace the source of my confusion. Sam didn’t have a LinkedIn profile, and when I asked him why he said he turned it off because he got too much recruiter spam, which was entirely believable. He said he’d turn it back on and send me the link, but hadn’t followed up. It wasn’t much, but it was certainly a bit odd given how reliable he seemed in general.
Why would someone who'd spent months, perhaps even years cultivating a network of fake LinkedIn profiles and confederates, not have a linkedin profile himself when not having one would immediately arouse suspicion? It's not like it's at all difficult to doctor your work links. Even his wife supposedly had a profile, faking as a VP at the company in question.
Something doesn't add up here.
by rusticpenn on 1/24/20, 7:48 AM
by Yessing on 1/24/20, 8:17 AM
- either the candidate was competent:
then why did he need to lie to get the job? maybe you're over-filtering based on resume and years of experience. The variable your looking for is competence. Years of experience, is just a proxy. if the proxy is drying up your supply, maybe it's not an effective one.
moreover, people are not born managers. why not give new talent a chance.
- the candidate was not competent:
The interview process is therefore broken and is not measuring competence. Maybe you're overvaluing confidence or the speed of answering. Maybe the questions are not Technical enough? I don't know. But notice that valuing anything that is irrelevant would lead to a lower expected value of candidate's competence.
Using ineffective tools while searching for something rare is unsurprisingly hard.
As a side comment, I'm kinda taken aback by the fact that interview results like "culture fit" are shared this way. I would've expected a higher standard of privacy. Is this commonly accepted?
Another point, I've noticed that the hiring process involved a lot of "friend / wife of a friend". Wouldn't this if left unchecked cause some ethnic/age-based bias ( not necessarily in a legal sense)?
by sfink on 1/25/20, 2:25 AM
by mikedilger on 1/25/20, 12:13 AM
by awesome_dude on 1/26/20, 10:22 PM
That is interviewer: Tell me what your next step is in solving this problem me: <radio silence>
The problem is two things, I, as an engineer, barely ever talk to people as I am solving whatever it is I am doing, so the interview is a completely artificial environment that I am not equipped for (although, as I interview more I get back into the groove and by the third or fourth interview I am able to anticipate the questions and produce a mechanical answer that satisfies the interviewer)
The second part of the problem is obvious, the interviewer has no clue why I cannot answer the question, so can only assume it's a lack of skills on my part.
Interviews are an artificial environment, there's no way an interviewer can actually tell from the interview whether the person in front of them is a good engineer or not.
When I have got a few interviews under my belt, I am fluent, and able to demonstrate my theory knowledge clearly. Have my skills changed? Not really, my interview skills for sure, but my engineering skills?
Interviewers often try to counter this by searching for some obscure factoid within the technology and wondering why people being interviewed don't know it (curiously there's the other problem here where interviewers themselves have an erroneous understanding of the technology and this leads to false negatives).
by dnh44 on 1/24/20, 8:27 AM
by Tenoke on 1/24/20, 7:37 AM
If he hadn't lied about his specific experience would you have hired him?
by stevage on 1/25/20, 12:28 AM
by austincheney on 1/24/20, 8:22 AM
Strange how never this occurs when executing or designing web technologies, particularly the DOM. Instead people jump immediately to the largest prepackaged solutions currently available without question, everything plus the kitchen sink, as normal as breathing. Invented here syndrome is the default without even the most subtle hint of consideration.
This is perhaps most clearly realized in that most developers have some irrational horrid fear of the DOM when they encounter it and yet simultaneously find the DOM to be some sort of savior to allowing Web Assembly to replace JavaScript. Never is the confusion or irrationality questioned in favor of something comforting.
I also find it strange how eagerly people are willing to impose bias in hiring and candidate selection to ensure the most important selection criteria is conformance opposed to performance. It really is as though the thought I notice I’m confused is something fearful to be protected from instead of confronted when developers are tasked with hiring.
by NiceWayToDoIT on 1/24/20, 7:37 AM
Over time people build distrust toward recruiters, why: - they use cold calling, - as soon as you resign they call to find who are your references, not to offer you a job, but to find who is lead contact in previous company they can call and so they could someone just to get that 20+% fee... - in order for these to succeed they need to use social engineering techniques (they pretend they are friendly) - they post fake job ads to collect CV ... - have I mentioned huge fees for literally doing nothing .... and on and on and on ....
Who ever was wrote this article he should just zip it ....
by juanbyrge on 1/24/20, 7:43 AM
"I figured, this guy's gotta be cheap, man. He really doesn't have much skills at all," Alcorn remembers. "So I figured I'd hire him.""
by nodesocket on 1/24/20, 7:57 AM
by drewcoo on 1/24/20, 7:40 AM