from Hacker News

All Sonos products will continue to work past May

by wlj on 1/23/20, 9:54 PM with 262 comments

• by zaroth on 1/23/20, 10:34 PM

  During a home renovation last year I added in-ceiling speakers throughout the first floor.

  I bought 8 Polk Audio speakers for $45 each plus a couple hundred feet of speaker cable from Monoprice and an 8 channel amplifier off Amazon which takes audio in from my receiver, which supports Chromecast and AirPlay.

  I had the opportunity to do this because the ceilings were already ripped down to redo lighting.

  The installers asked why I wasn’t going with Sonos and I said why would I replace a device which is literally impossible to become obsolete, requires zero configuration, and is almost impossible to break with a device which will maybe last 5 years if I’m lucky and requires configuration, software updates, and license agreements?

  I get it if you have absolutely no way to run the wires then a WiFi system maybe almost makes sense. Otherwise how can you beat hard-wired speakers and a dumb 8-channel amp?

• by stirlo on 1/23/20, 10:32 PM

  I'm surprised they're issuing a statement admitting they made a "misstep". Surely they knew in advance the original update (removing support for their earliest adopters) would be received extremely negatively. I would have thought their comms strategy would have been to hold the line and wait for it to die down rather than revising their status so quickly.

  Either way the damage is done. It's become clear through the "recycling" program, the revision of the Sonos ONE after only 16 months and now the lobotomizing of the original Play 5 that they are not going to stand behind their products like they used to. I'm not buying more $400 speakers from a company that's aim is to force upgrades by deprecating support to bring up their quarterly sales figures.

  Time to buy some Chromecast or Airplay 2 devices and sign up for an ecosystem from a company that has a different revenue stream and doesn't need to force rapid hardware refreshes.

• by RyanShook on 1/23/20, 10:43 PM

  From the original blog post:

  "We've now come to a point where some of the oldest products have been stretched to their technical limits in terms of memory and processing power,"

  Since when does playing back music files stretch the limits of what these speakers were designed to do? I have invested pretty heavily in Sonos but now realize I would have been better off connecting an Airplay adapter to a traditional sound system...

• by WheelsAtLarge on 1/23/20, 10:08 PM

  I get it. It's hard to maintain hardware forever but the current trend of making hardware obsolete is just wasteful. These companies need to find a business model for old hardware. I'm open to paying a maintenance fee that would give me critical updates after a certain point in time. Maybe 5%/yr of the original cost after 5 years.

  Sending working hardware to the dump is not a long term fix.

• by mrich on 1/23/20, 10:45 PM

  How about enacting a law that you either need to keep your hardware running via software updates, or you need to open-source all the software for others to keep doing so the moment you cease support. Would prevent a lot of waste.

• by mattbee on 1/24/20, 1:23 AM

  This non-apology announces no changes, and does nothing for Sonos owners worrying which product get cut off next. They're even still selling the Connect on their site - with no warnings! https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/shop/connect.html

  It seems completely incompetent, but makes sense if you believe they're going to be acquired this year.

  Ben Einstein said last in July 18 (https://blog.bolt.io/sonos-one/) Sonos are "a traditional speaker manufacturer incrementally adding technology in an attempt to keep up with a fast-moving race". Sonos probably still have the best multi-room speaker solution, but 1) their lead on that is slipping, and 2) I don't think new buyers care about multiroom as much as they do streaming services & features - i.e. the bits Sonos must be being squeezed on.

  Their proposed solution for customers with old devices is a software-managed network split between old & new - that will kills multiroom playback for holdouts! That's the worst of both worlds - Sonos paying programmers to prop up old devices, while owners still prepare to see a fundamental degradation in their system.

  Then the tie-in with IKEA seems like an enormous dilution of their brand. Now you can buy Sonos components from IKEA, and the IKEA home app can also control all of your Sonos speakers (not just the IKEA ones).

  So that's that I think they have a deal in the works (IKEA?) - and they're massaging a few quarters to show briefly increased profitability while the long-term vision can go to hell.

  In that light, cutting off old products in the face of so many angry customers makes sense. They remove a legacy support liability instantly, allowing them to be bullish about future R&D costs. And the angry customers are the ones bought into Sonos' 15yo product vision - they just may not represent much future revenue.

• by shanecleveland on 1/23/20, 11:10 PM

  I suspect a lot of this has to do with perception. Even though a phone or laptop may appear to be in fine condition after several years and may even work very well, we understand that the internals no longer support more advanced, current hardware and software capabilities.

  But I don't think the same way about speakers. The part that really matters for a speaker is the construction of the cabinet and the quality of the actual speakers (woofers, mids, tweeters, etc.). Traditional speakers have very little electronics involved.

  Too bad Sonos didn't design a more modular/swappable system. I can understand needing to replace a central receiver/hub on occasion to take advantage of new capabilities, and/or swap out a component of the speaker, such as a bluetooth receiver. But to make all speakers in a system no longer supported is hard to understand.

• by nl on 1/23/20, 11:27 PM

  People seem to miss the point of Sonos.

  Yes, you can build a good stereo system, connect some kind of streaming system and end up with something roughly the equivalent of Sonos.

  But this is the whole Dropbox vs Git+Remote Backup+Your own server thing.

  The ease of use and "it just works" simplicity is the feature, and every other setup compromises this to some extent.

  I have a Onkyo & Dali hi-fi setup. It's a great system. And I've made attempts to make it as easy to use as Sonos.

  Let's go through the things I've tried and the compromises they have:

  - Harmony remote + CEC to control the TV and stereo. This is ok (the Harmony products are good) but has *exactly the same issues as Sonos: a propriety system that is subject to upgrades. I've had to throw away one system already.

  - Bluetooth streaming. Tried Airplay, but there is no reliable Android support. Bluetooth is ok, but if the range is annoying if someone is walking around the house.

  - Zones. My amp sort of has a concept of this, but I haven't even attempted to get it to work. The wiring of speakers is enough to put me off it.

  Sonos solves all these problems. But obsoleting their speakers is horrible, and 4 years seems too short a time for this.

  I'm not sure what the solution is, but some kind of maintenance fee is something I'd consider - especially for older hardware. It'd have to be substantially less than what I pay for Spotify though. Maybe after 5 years I'd pay $10/year?

• by adamfeldman on 1/23/20, 10:00 PM

  Found this for further context -- January 21 blog post:

  https://blog.sonos.com/en/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy...

• by Unklejoe on 1/24/20, 1:27 PM

  You know what? I'm not going to let people gaslight me into believing that a stereo system needs to be integrated into the "cloud" and rely on some third party service to function.

  I have HiFi equipment literally from the 1970's and 1980's that will continue to operate well beyond the lifespan of any cloud-connected web-app-configured third-party-controlled WiFi Sonos type bullshit.

  It's not like there have been really ground breaking improves in speaker technology since the 80's anyway. Maybe some material improvements? I'm pretty sure my B&W speakers from the 80's can still hold their own against a decent stereo today...

  So what are you paying for? WiFi connectivity? Is that even really any more convenient? How about when it stops working?

  God, I'm triggered.

• by clement_b on 1/24/20, 9:02 AM

  Do they know that this tentative move highlighted how the entire conneced device market is a bad deal for customers? Detractors of connected devices often tout how useless these are when the internet is temporarily down, but the biggest threat is not there (hopefully). The biggest threat comes from the entity providing the link. Those guys need to be up forever!

  And that's not the only issue. There is no economic reasons for companies like Sonos to maintain devices for ever, for free. So either they stop doing so, or a new business models will arise, making connected devices yet another subscription-based play. Why not?

  Connected devices exist because of our laziness at the cost of sustainability, privacy, security, control.

  Apart from that they are a great deal!

• by AndrewDucker on 1/24/20, 11:19 AM

  I miss the days of standards. Having to buy into an ecosystem for this kind of thing is remarkably annoying. I want to be able to buy any "smart" speakers I like and have them work together through a common control system. Not be stuck at the mercy of individual company decisions.

• by strags on 1/24/20, 2:29 AM

  I have a Sonos that came with my house. It's actually the least of my worries.

  The house was built about 10 years ago with what (I presume) was a state-of-the-art system at the time - an "AudioAccess WHEN" system. It works fine - there are keypads and speakers in every room, and I can pipe audio from the Sonos (or an Airplay receiver) to anywhere.

  It's a weird topology, however - the speakers in each room are wired to the keypads (which is where the amps live). Each keypad has a power connection, and some kind of (presumably proprietary) Cat-5 connection to a central hub. The hub in turn is connected via Cat-5 to a head unit with FM receiver, CD/AUX inputs, etc...

  When we moved into the house, the head unit wasn't working - it refused to establish a connection to the hub. I managed to track down a working tech support phone number, only to hear that they don't make this system any more, and that the head units often fail in this way. I managed to find what may have been the last replacement head unit in existence on Ebay - bought it, and fortunately everything started working!

  I am, however, dreading the day when it inevitably dies. Since the speaker wires go to the keypad amps, and not to the wiring closet (where the hubs live), I'm not sure what I could replace it with - beyond re-running new speaker wire to a completely new system in the wiring closet.

• by dickeytk on 1/23/20, 10:54 PM

  To focus on one product: the original play:5 came out Nov 2009 (which is impacted here). The replacement came out in Sep 2015.

  For a company that builds their brand loyalty on keeping existing customers happy with their purchases (via OTA updates and slow replacement frequency), 4.5 years isn't long enough in my opinion—hopefully there weren't a ton of play:5 buyers in that final year. Forever isn't reasonable either of course with how heavily cloud based they are. I think it should be closer to 10.

  It's a little hard to imagine 2010 devices keeping up in 2020, but I'm sure that 2030 will be kinder to 2020 hardware. In the same way a 1995 laptop is far less capable than a 2005 compared to 2015. I think they could make that commitment.

  I give Sonos a longer time I would others because they justify their price tag based on how unlikely you are to have to replace it. Rather—that's how I justified all of mine.

  And they should be up front with what that duration will be when you buy it.

• by LeoPanthera on 1/23/20, 10:08 PM

  Hugged to death, I think.

• by wrsh07 on 1/23/20, 11:47 PM

  I'm honestly quite confused why they can't revert to a "dumb" speaker mode and then provide a proprietary Chromecast equivalent that only works with their speakers that can be trivially replaced

  This would mean that if you want continued software updates you just plug in the expansion pack, like I did for my N64.

• by mikl on 1/24/20, 8:33 AM

  > While legacy Sonos products won’t get new software features, we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible.

  As long as possible is not a super clear commitment, but otherwise I’m happy with this. I don’t need new features, I just want my Sonos setup to keep working.

  Glad they listened.

• by DevKoala on 1/23/20, 10:42 PM

  The "smart" appliances sound so dumb in retrospect.

• by ggm on 1/24/20, 12:56 AM

  Forgive me if I missed this in discussion, but I thought the bricking event, was if you attempted to surrender the old licence rights, to enable a discount code.

  If the bricking happened irrespective, I think it maybe broke expectations across the consumer/supplier boundary. If you are 'turning in' a device to get a discount on a new device, I don't personally have a problem with them bricking it, because you are doing the virtual equivalent of giving it back to them, to get the new one.

  e.g. Google say five devices. you want to add a sixth? you have to de-licence one. If you do, its local copy of Google IPR protected content could wipe. Switch google accounts? it can wipe. This is not "nice" but its not uncommon.

  Did I mis-understand? (not a sonos customer btw, outside observer, un-involved)

• by slg on 1/23/20, 10:08 PM

  The page isn't working for me so I can't confirm this, but the headline is so innocuous that it needing to exist at all probably shows a huge underlying problem. Is there some name for that phenomenon? Is it some relative of Betteridge's law?

  EDIT: I just realized this is the equivalent of the "asking questions already answered by my shirt" meme. The existence of this headline just causes people to ask the question why the headline needs to exist.

  [1] - https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/a-lot-of-questions-already-an...

• by 23B1 on 1/23/20, 10:41 PM

  Solid response from a company that historically seemed deaf to customer feedback. This is a move in the right direction for Sonos - but I definitely will hold off on buying any new Sonos equipment until I see how they handle this.

• by zweep on 1/23/20, 10:45 PM

  I feel like all of this IoT hardware should be rented rather than bought. If your piece of crap can suddenly stop working, I don't want to own it. Rent it to me and take it back when it's useless.

• by givinguflac on 1/24/20, 12:03 PM

  All you people suggesting chromecast as an audio solution are hilarious. It’s literally already in the unsupported state without updates that Sonos is going to do with products ten times as old. Wtf are you thinking? What is the difference in your mind between Sonos issuing bug fixes but not new features, and relying on chromecast audio which already stopped supports years ago? It’s absurd to complain and then choose a product with even less support which was dropped after like a year on the market

• by doubtfuluser on 1/25/20, 8:34 AM

  i Think what they misunderstood is really their customerbase. Mid level audiophiles who want comfortable music with good sound. I don’t care if I can talk with my speaker and order pizza or not. And my rough guess is, that just looking at the data their customers don’t change zones constantly but use a few very often. The strategy that they currently seem to follow is a strategy against service providers in the field of music, instead of working on what they actually sell: hardware. No matter how many blog posts will follow, as long as they don’t restart innovating in the interest of their core customers (mid audiophiles looking for comfort and usability to listen to music), they are losing me as a customer and i would bet they are also going to lose against the echo/HomePods and so on. Sad to see a once innovative company struggling because they try to win a box fight not realizing they are better at swimming.

• by weq on 1/24/20, 2:29 AM

  Why is the advice to switch to Apple or Google ecosystems in lue of Sonos?

  I use a 2004 era laptop to power my media experiences throughout my home, connected to regular ole amplifiers of variying vintages. 10-15yrs old off ebay seems to be a sweat spot, you pay ~10% the original 2-10k price tags because these units are purchased by wealthy consumer audiophiles.

• by NoPicklez on 1/24/20, 1:55 AM

  I really hope I can continue to use my Sonos home theatre setup for years to come. For atleast playing music through the Sonos app and watching TV.

  I have two play 3's, playbar and a sub and after having them for 4 years it still blows me away the sound and how convenient to is to use between watching TV and playing music.

• by nsm on 1/24/20, 4:38 AM

  The first story in Cory Doctorow's book "Radicalized" is about toasters that stop working because the company that sold them goes bankrupt, and how that ends up in refugees being evicted from their homes. We aren't there yet, but each of these devices is a small step in that direction.

• by lawlorino on 1/24/20, 11:03 AM

  This whole mess has got me thinking we'll start seeing more of this from other manufacturers of "smart home" technology in the future as they realise it's expensive to maintain legacy systems and force people to keep buying new stuff every few of years.

• by mongol on 1/23/20, 11:06 PM

  I am very satisfied with my Snapcast + Home Assistant setup. I needed to spend more time get my setup going than a Sonos user probably needs, that is not for everyone, I realize that. I think it does what Sonos does. But maybe Sonos is more advanced.

• by Hamuko on 1/23/20, 10:12 PM

  The title initially made me believe this was about the devices that they purposefully bricked in order to sell new ones (at some discount). But apparently it's actually about all Sonos products that they didn't purposefully turn into waste.

• by rahilb on 1/23/20, 11:21 PM

  I have a connect amp: how would one go about trying to root it?

  I have no experience with reverse engineering or hardware really, are there any good resources for stuff like this?

• by microdrum on 1/23/20, 11:49 PM

  Maybe they should include an AUX port on their speakers.

• by acd on 1/24/20, 9:27 AM

  Or you could get Vinyl player and à Classic amp. Plus sides does not get obselete. Doesn’t require software updates. Good stereo separation.

• by Angostura on 1/23/20, 10:36 PM

  I'm not looking forward to June.

• by metabagel on 1/24/20, 12:14 AM

  How do I tell if I have the older or newer version of the Sonos One?

• by yarg on 1/24/20, 7:28 AM

  The only viable solution to this is open source firmware.

• by jonplackett on 1/23/20, 11:02 PM

  I really don’t get why people want Sonos speakers in the first place. Linking together two pieces of technology with different lifespans just seems silly.

  Speakers are mature hardware. Sound is not going to get better any time soon. They’ve been about as good as they can be for decades. A good speaker and amp might last you 25 years or more. WiFi/AirPlay/etc is new and changing. Don’t put these two together in an inseparable product!

  It’s probably the reason Apple never released that smart TV everyone was expecting - it’s just better to have a TV that you can keep for years + a less expensive box you can replace as technology changes.