from Hacker News

BART's Fare Evasion Crackdown Exposes the 'Deadly Elegance' of Hostile Design

by fezz on 7/24/19, 9:26 PM with 48 comments

  • by glangdale on 7/25/19, 12:01 AM

    This article starts with a valid point and careens into insanity.

    Arguably a design that permits a chunk of downtown to turn into a homeless encampment is "hostile" to the original purpose of a bench downtown, which is to be sat on by a range of different people in the course of the day.

    If those BART gates are anything like the ones in Sydney, though, they are a substantial risk. During the roll-out of our "Opal" card system I got my leg slammed - hard - by the gates doing that thing where the mechanics are a little too slow to keep up with the electronics and a bunch of people are going through one after the other and largely keeping the gate open. To be clear, I'm talking about walking through the gate only after having the comforting little noise that said "yes, I scanned your card and you're OK" - not me trying to race through the system regardless of status.

    I lift weights, am a fairly healthy middle-aged man, and am large (6'2.5", 235kg) and getting hit by that normal gate hurt. I cannot imagine what the consequences of this kind of paranoid design - especially amp-ing up the gate with more nasty stuff - would do to someone who is older and frailer (but perhaps not old/frail enough to feel like they have to use the special wide gate). It is completely unreasonable to endanger more vulnerable legitimate transit users to get a little more compliance, especially where the biggest scofflaws will still just vault the gates or 'draft' through behind others.

  • by akira2501 on 7/24/19, 11:39 PM

    Maybe I'm showing my age, but I honestly don't understand what's "anti-poor" or "anti-homeless" or "ableist" about this design? To me, it can only seem this way if you see fare evasion as a natural right of the citizens.

    Am I a curmudgeon, or is the level of concern shown in the article a legitimate thing?

  • by nlh on 7/24/19, 11:55 PM

    I’m having a lot of trouble with this article. It’s conflating a park bench with armrests or a ledge with spikes (both, I think, at least legitimate points of discussion when it comes to hostile design) with something designed to prevent people from stealing service.

    BART service has a fare, gated by turnstiles. People try to steal that service by jumping over those turnstiles. So BART has modified them to make it harder to steal.

    Of course the design is hostile - it’s trying to prevent theft!

    Am I missing something?

  • by darkpuma on 7/24/19, 11:50 PM

    > "Yet an underlying concern is that pilot programs like these could alienate riders from taking public transportation entirely."

    Junkies defecating in the train station discourages me a hell of a lot more than "hostile design", which for the most part is purely decorative from my perspective because my perspective is not that of somebody wishing to do precisely that which the "hostile design" is meant to encourage.

    "Hostile design" is in fact defensive design, designed to protect the common people from the anti-social and frequently hostile behaviors you frequently see on public display in Californian cities. We need more of it.

    (Note also that "hostile design" does not focus just on the homeless, but in fact encompasses a wide range of techniques aimed at addressing a wide range of anti-social behaviors. For instance, skate boarders can be discouraged from playing in crowded areas where they present a risk to bystanders with use of furniture and structures specifically designed to discourage skateboarders. This addresses the problem of skateboarders causing property damage or frightening bystanders without threats of force (e.g. property owners calling the police or hiring a security guard) or any other form of confrontation. Isn't that better, or at least safer, for everybody involved? Similarly, "hostile" design allows property owners to discourage the homeless without instigating a confrontation between the homeless and police officers.)

  • by lordCarbonFiber on 7/24/19, 9:58 PM

    Discussion around hostile design always seems to miss the forest for the trees to me. To point out a concrete example, is it better to address homeless populations with some combination of state housing and UBI programs or, accept homelessness as an axiom and design public spaces to that end? The latter seems considerably more elitist and fatalist.
  • by AdamM12 on 7/24/19, 11:37 PM

    > Yet an underlying concern is that pilot programs like these could alienate riders from taking public transportation entirely.

    I thought this was the best line of the whole thing. If you can't pay for it then how can you be alienated? If you are paying for it then isn't the so called "hostile" design no longer hostile?

  • by bassman9000 on 7/25/19, 5:50 AM

    > A city

    > BART

    > San Francisco

    > Fruitvale

    Ok

  • by ridicuus101 on 7/24/19, 11:32 PM

    This is a politicized article and doesn't belong on hacker news. As someone who used to live in the bay area but no longer does, I can't help but think a lot of the people there have some major issues where they take every normal thing that other cities do to keep quality of life high and berate any attempts to do the same in the bay area as if every decision made for public health, safety and overall cleanliness of an urban area has to be optimized for the homeless and drug addicts. It's honestly pretty strange and seems sick to me.