by bubmiw on 5/18/19, 4:02 AM with 129 comments
by anon77887 on 5/18/19, 6:00 AM
I hired a female contractor engineer (in the UK contractors are paid daily, supposed to be easy to hire/fire), my manager is also female. 2 weeks after the engineer started, I knew she wouldn't be able to stay in the team because her work was not good (she was spending a lot of time chatting around, and not producing good quality code). Everybody complains to me that my engineer is not performing well, but my manager makes me keep her. A month later my manager asks for a meeting with me, and says that my contractor has been complaining about micro-management, and that it can be seen as bullying or harassment. Because of that I leave for 2 weeks, and it takes another month to get rid of the contractor.
Learnings: I actually handled the situation very well, but I suffered a lot from the way my manager handled the situation. I have myself managed, hired and fired dozens of people in my career. Yet as soon as it was a girl, the rules of the game completely changed, and it didn't matter who was right or wrong. No matter how much I want to be inclusive and how much I want to give equal rights to everybody, other people (and even females) don't see it that way, and still want to make a distinction between sexes.
by shakna on 5/18/19, 4:45 AM
I'm male, I've been accused of sexual abuse, and it was thrown out because it became exceedingly clear that it never happened. That was extremely unpleasant to go through, and I'd rather never go through it again.
However, it hasn't had an ongoing effect on my relationships with women, just the one woman. I'm still more than happy to work with my coworkers regardless of their sex, and I'm more than happy to guide anyone who happens to fall under my leadership.
Anybody accused is first judged by the audience. A certain amount of guilt is assumed. That you let yourself into a potentially compromising situation, or you sought out the situation.
And I imagine the higher you are up a managerial chain, the higher the stakes are when you get accused.
There is a human cost, even if "nothing comes of it".
I imagine many of these managers are terrified of the ordeal, of lawyers, they don't know if the company will support them until a judgement is made or kick them to the curb. Of the effect it may have on their family, where they might already have strained relationships with their spouses.
They don't want to potentially risk it, because the power dynamics at play are not in their favour from the outset. The system is biased to find fault, rather than first determine if there was fault.
At the same time, we can't cut the authority of the system in any way - the people it protects, who genuinely need protection, often are already in a power imbalance of their own.
The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those under you. If you can't be, then perhaps a management position is not appropriate for you. Perhaps you need to learn to thrive in a different role. Harsh, certainly, but as the environment stands, ignoring those under your care will only help to promote an environment where women are once again second-class citizens.
by 6Wc1p3KH on 5/18/19, 4:40 AM
I'm not a manager, but I eat lunch/dinner one on one with men far more than I eat lunch/dinner with women, and it's because I try not to be a creep. I try to manage bias and I try to be aware of when I might be doing something for a coworker just because she's female and pretty, and unfortunately that means that when it is actually genuinely appropriate to grab dinner together and talk about our work I second-guess myself. When it does happen, it's usually a more senior coworker taking the initiative first.
No idea how to stop doing it other than time and experience. If you've got tips, throw them out there.
by jonnybgood on 5/18/19, 4:24 AM
by random123987 on 5/18/19, 10:44 AM
Nevertheless, I do have a certain empathy for the people who talk about their fears here. I have mine too. Again there is this small difference: while you fear that a certain accusation(which happens how often?) can ruin your carrier, I have a fear that your fear can ruin my carrier with >60% chance. Without possibility for me to get accused explicitly, leaving me no chance to defend myself.
While I'm taking a moment to feel your fears, can I ask you to do the same for mine?
by simonblack on 5/19/19, 1:21 AM
Once upon a time, I would have tried to help distressed children. These days I walk straight past them. Let the next female do the consoling.
by lostmymind66 on 5/18/19, 4:50 AM
As a result, it would be smart of most men in these positions to either not mentor at all or always have someone else in the room. I wouldn't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at some point.
The real problem is that false accusers won't face many repercussions compared to the accused. Some men accused are even found to have done nothing and it doesn't matter. People still believe they did something.
by 16e6471bd4b781 on 5/18/19, 4:27 AM
I have changed my behavior around women subordinates. It sucks, but that’s the reality. At this point I’m as concerned with the appearance of impropriety as I am false accusations. I know who I am and I trust myself. Everyone else? Not so much anymore.
by dvfjsdhgfv on 5/18/19, 6:05 AM
by sfink on 5/18/19, 8:20 AM
The reactions I'm seeing are... not helpful for the most part.
One reaction is that this is a horrible thing because it is unfair. I agree that it is an unfortunate part of our current reality. So is the possibility of being forced into uncomfortable situations, or more generally, being sexually harassed when you're a blameless woman in the workplace. I don't see a way of resolving that unfairness without any negative impact on blameless men.
We can certainly try to work together in good faith to minimize negative impact while creating positive change. But wailing and moaning about the balance of power tipping slightly away from us (I'm a white male) is not acting in good faith. It's just plain entitlement.
The #metoo movement's direct impact puts me at more risk than before. And I've taken advantage of my cultural immunity more than once in my life. I'm not proud of some things in my past, and I'm not free from the possibility of doing more things in the future. I have problematic biases and attitudes. But I'd rather live in, and have my kids grow up in, the sort of world that #metoo is leading us towards than the world that (I hope) we're leaving behind.
Besides, some of this abject fear over being accused of the things that we've actually done would be lessened if the patriarchal walls of silence and secrecy were torn down so we could all see what is actually happening in the world, rather than the whitewashed appearance of perfect honor and respect that we all pretend is real. I don't think my personal lapses would be judged too harshly if compared against reality. But they look pretty bad if compared to all the guys professing purity and innocence -- because we as a society have somehow fooled ourselves into believing them.
60% of male managers are nervous about mentoring women. What percentage of working women are nervous about what their male coworkers might do one at any point in the future?
And fuck that, what percentage have already experienced worse than what a male manager might realistically experience from a complaint about his behavior in a 1-1? And don't bother pulling out the "but what if absolutely nothing happened but the woman accused him unfairly and he lost his job and wife and kids and had to live under a bridge until he killed himself??!" unless you have some solid evidence that this happens more often than women get raped by acquaintances.
Or if you don't like that comparison, maybe look at the number of women who lose jobs or careers or get blacklisted as a result of someone else harassing them.
by atdt on 5/18/19, 4:36 AM
by threatofrain on 5/18/19, 4:48 AM
by itsaidpens on 5/18/19, 4:16 AM
by Lendal on 5/18/19, 4:23 AM
by benatkin on 5/18/19, 4:23 AM
> "The thing is, it's not enough," she says. "It's really important to not harass anyone, but that's pretty basic. We also need to not be ignored."
There's no need to walk back any part of MeToo to solve this problem, just to keep pushing forward.
by tehjoker on 5/18/19, 4:35 AM
This goes for technical skills and moral ones too. You feel bad until you're better.
by walru on 5/18/19, 4:29 AM