from Hacker News

UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

by bryanwbh on 2/20/19, 11:41 PM with 71 comments

  • by misiti3780 on 2/21/19, 1:29 AM

    Another slap on the wrist. No one goes to jail because of Deferred Prosecution Agreements

    HSBC got fined about half that when they caught laundering money for the Mexican cartels a few years back. True story: HSBC had to design special teller windows because the standard ones were too small to fit the sacks of money that were being brought in and laundered. If you want to know why these guys don't go to jail, pull up a bottle of lithium and sit down with The Chickenshit Club.

  • by ghostDancer on 2/21/19, 12:35 AM

  • by arama471 on 2/21/19, 12:40 AM

    Does anyone know what the likelyhood of the 4.2B being paid out is? I imagine that UBS will go through all possible appeals processes.

    Also if the article is right in that this was affected by the protests, then that is a big win for protesting.

  • by laser on 2/21/19, 8:23 AM

    What happens if a fine is greater than the value of a multi-national company's operations in a country? As $4.2 billion is ~10% of UBS's market cap, does UBS derive more than 10% of its value from within France? If not, might they just abandon operations in the country for the government to seize and avoid paying the fine, or would EU or international-level agreements or courts enforce payment? Anyone know of any precedent regarding such a scenario?

  • by juozas on 2/21/19, 8:56 AM

    €3.7B ($4.2B) is last year profit. Fine is €4.5B($5.1) Here is link to not paywalled article https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ubs-trial-fraud/ubs-to-ap...

    EDIT: Actually fine is €3.7 + €800m in damages.

  • by Hermel on 2/21/19, 3:31 AM

    We are shifting more and more towards a legal system where not only those who actually did something wrong (here the tax evaders), but also those whose services have been used to do so are considered guilty. Another example is copyright, where websites are increasingly held liable for user uploads. I'm not convinced that this is a good development.

  • by contingencies on 2/21/19, 2:46 AM

    I wonder if they will rethink their "fat billboards at Beijing airport" marketing strategy. Who wouldn't love to see China fine a Swiss bank?

  • by rb808 on 2/21/19, 2:40 AM

    Big banks a such an easy target these days. Everyone in hates them and politicians love that because they can extract big fines. win-win-win. Until all the banks go under at least - US banks are mostly solvent still, European ones look like all the big ones will go under.

  • by easytiger on 2/21/19, 8:51 AM

    The predicate for this dates back a long way. I believe UBS were offered an initial sum of $1.1b to settle a few years ago and took it to trial [1]

    > The judges’ move followed a failed plea bargain between national financial prosecutors and UBS representatives, the first time such an out-of-court settlement was tested in France. French magistrates reportedly offered UBS to settle the case for 1.1 billion euros ($1.2 billion), after considering an initial deal of 2.2 billion euros ($2.4 billion). - 2017

    However the basis was

    > The assets illegally concealed by French clients in Switzerland between 2004 and 2012 allegedly amounted some 10 billion euros ($10.75 billion).

    Another quote puts it at $600billion[2]

    I'd love to know the definition of "illegally concealed" in these circumstances

    The chances of it being reasonable I'd consider very slim; France is not a reasonable country nor is it run by reasonable people. France is a failing protection racket running out of people to shake down, by and large. When the people who run the socialist party government budget are offshoring their wealth - perhaps your country is fundamentally broken.[3]

    [1] https://www.apnews.com/2c7032c7d75a40728395587fd917517e

    [2] http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/04/europe-loses-billions-to-tax-...

    [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-17/three-ex-...

    Edit: Downvotes without comment. Not exactly productive conversation.