from Hacker News

$600 Chromebooks are a dangerous development for Microsoft

by mockindignant on 9/1/18, 1:19 PM with 414 comments

  • by sarcasmic on 9/1/18, 3:47 PM

    Any Chromebook more than $400 right now is just there to absorb even more disposable income from the market, because they ship with nicer finishes and faster processors, but they are anemic on memory and storage, making them subpar for intense multitasking, or getting certain types of work done. The situations in which they excel can be reliably hit by Chromebooks around a $400 price point, and even cheaper Chromebooks allow one to forego performance for the increased disposability of the machine.

    I suspect one reason for $600 devices, other than Google itself trying to reposition Chromebooks as more upmarket, is because $600 Windows laptops are still are a mess of preloaded bullshit put there by the vendor. Microsoft has tried various ways to fix this but it only tends to protect high-end models. And build quality and the nature of hardware compromises at that price point have always been unpleasant, save for a few concentrated efforts like Lenovo's IdeaPad line. In other words, $600 laptops are second only to $200 laptops in making Windows look bad, making them an easy target for an OS that proved that $200 laptops can actually be quite good.

    Still, there are few challenges. Chromebooks' filesystem paradigm deemphasises local storage to the point of cumbersome, relying on Google Drive or custom interfaces and implementations built for each app that know how to pull up past work. This is a smart idea when everything works, but makes import, export, and context switching harder, and makes sharing a feature of the product rather than a file-based affair.

    On Chromebooks, Chrome's fantastic profile system is deliberately conflated with Chrome OS login sessions, which makes it harder for one user to maintain multiple independent browsing contexts than when using Chrome on other platforms. Power users on Windows can run multiple browsers, or use profile systems in browsers to keep separation, but on Chrome OS, you only get two de facto contexts (the white one and the black one with the cool spy icon), you blast the same cookies everywhere, and half your builtin applications are just hyperlinks to auto-log you into the corresponding Google product in your global white context. Applications like Hangouts (the app, not the extension) are rare, where the entire window inherits your OS login, but keeps your context entirely separate from what you're doing in the browser.

    Nonetheless, with Service Workers and graphics APIs and auto-resuming applications and unintrusive updates, and people using Google products anyway, Microsoft should be worried, because they're being challenged for customers in a segment where their OS is least compelling, and was largely used by default.

  • by mabbo on 9/1/18, 3:18 PM

    I was an intern at Microsoft the day that ChromeOS was announced. Conveniently, a few days later the head of Windows was giving a talk to all the interns. Overall, spoke well, but during Q&A someone asked him what he thought about ChromeOS.

    He laughed. He said it was a joke. He made it very clear that he didn't understand what Google was even thinking. And that stuck such a sour chord on me. Here's a company well known to be hiring the brightest people in the world, and they've announced a direct competitor to what you're doing... and you're laughing? It was like seeing an experienced chess player playing against a rumored-to-be-brilliant child prodigy and laughing at the stupid move the child was making.

    I spent the next summer working on the ChromeOS team.

  • by nickjj on 9/1/18, 4:34 PM

    A few years ago I picked up a $300 Chromebook, spent $50 to upgrade the SSD size (swapped the SSD card in it) and now I run GalliumOS on it (native xubuntu but optimized for Chromebooks).

    So for $350 you get a 1080p IPS panel laptop that weighs under 3 pounds and has an SD card, headphone jack and other goodies. It easily runs a bunch of Dockerized web apps without being slow.

    One of the best portable computing devices I ever spent $ on. I still use it almost every day 2.5 years later.

    Details can be found at: https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/transform-a-toshiba-chromeboo...

  • by scarface74 on 9/1/18, 3:39 PM

    Dependence on Windows is the most dangerous development for Microsoft. An 8GB RAM Windows Surface Go is less performant than an iPad with 2GB of RAM for consumers.

    For the server, I recently had to write a process that takes messages from a queue in AWS and store it to a database. It ran well as a .Net Core based lambda running on a 256MB RAM Linux VM.

    I did the same with a .Net Framesork app that inherited and the smallest EC2 instance we could use was one with 4GB RAM. It was barely usable. We had to upgrade to 8GB. Microsoft has been successful because of Moore’s law hid the increasing bloat of Windows. But once smartphones and low resource required operating systems became popular, they can’t compete.

  • by disconnected on 9/1/18, 4:41 PM

    This article misses the mark completely by assuming that Microsoft still needs Windows to stay afloat.

    This hasn't been true for years.

    They have realized that it doesn't matter whether you use Windows, Chrome OS, Android or Linux, or anything else: everything is in the cloud now, so the OS is pretty much irrelevant.

    Azure, Office 365 and heck, even Linkedin are doing great:

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/19/microsoft_huge_2018...

    So I very much doubt that Microsoft is sweating it about Chromebooks.

  • by Crontab on 9/1/18, 5:23 PM

    I like the idea of ChromeOS but I don't understand why anyone would want to own a computer that you can't even create a user account on without the manufacturer's permission. I am also unsure, from a privacy prospective, if it is wise to use an OS created by an advertising company.
  • by Someone1234 on 9/1/18, 4:22 PM

    Let me just say right off the bat that I like Chromebooks and think they're fantastic for education in particular (combined with GSuite).

    But that being said, Chromebooks don't scale with better hardware very well. You can spend $250-350 and get 90% of the experience, and a very good experience at that. If you spend three times more you'll get more memory for Chrome and slightly more responsive tabs but hardly blows your socks off.

    Microsoft likely aren't shaking in their boots because of a $600-900 Chromebook. If anything Android emulation is the real "killer app" since it massively expands a Chromebook's capabilities, including running Microsoft's own Android-Office apps.

  • by matt2000 on 9/1/18, 3:37 PM

    I never really understood why MSFT didn't start a clean slate rewrite of Windows about a decade ago. Imagine how much simpler and more reliable it could be, and you could run Windows 7 in an emulation layer if you had older apps you depended on.

    Even OS X has the feel that cloud services are kind of bolted on, whereas a new OS written in this era could feel more like ChromeOS in terms of reliability but still include features for advanced users like developers and business analytics.

    Definitely feels like a missed opportunity, especially with growing discontent among developers with the Mac hardware line.

  • by syntaxing on 9/1/18, 5:22 PM

    Bought a relatively highend Chromebook for a family member and I have to say, these things are honestly really nice and perfect for the average user. I just wish there was something similar for standalone linux. The same sleek profile and price point as the Acer 14/15 series but runs some generic distro like Ubuntu natively.

    I know you can run Crouton but it just doesn't feel the same.

  • by open-source-ux on 9/1/18, 3:32 PM

    Don't forget that ChromeOS is an operating system (OS) that tracks everything you do. To use the OS to the full requires a Google account, so you aren't even anonymous while you use it. (As a reminder, your Google account = your name, your date of birth, your location, your gender and mobile phone number i.e. some of your most private and personal details.)

    We've seen Microsoft criticised, quite rightly, for introducing tracking of users in Windows 10 (euphemistically labelled as telemetry), yet Google gets no criticism. In fact we get the opposite, people rush to Google's defence. The double-standard is hard to understand.

    Presumably, if you think it's fine for ChromeOS to record everything you do in the OS, you equally think it's fine for Windows/Mac OS/Ubuntu to record everything you do too (non-anonymously of course).

  • by anoncoward111 on 9/1/18, 1:30 PM

    $100 Pre-2010 laptops running Lubuntu are an even more dangerous threat that more and more people are learning about
  • by 013a on 9/1/18, 4:58 PM

    In classic tech journalism fashion, no mention or even apparent knowledge of Microsoft's own efforts in this area: Polaris, Core OS, OneCore, and CShell [1] [2]

    [1] https://www.windowscentral.com/understanding-windows-core-os...

    [2] https://youtu.be/F_bPcctTV_Y

  • by beezle on 9/1/18, 6:46 PM

    Unlike Google and Apple, Microsoft really doesn't care what you run on their OS or do with their hardware. Though it is not quite 'freedom' in the OSS evangelical sense, I'll still take it any day over the other two, Chrome/Google in particular. YMMV.
  • by joezydeco on 9/1/18, 6:10 PM

    For example, new college students that had used Chrome OS at high school and families who wanted the robustness Chrome OS offers are looking for machines that are more attractive, use better materials, and are a bit faster and more powerful. The $600 machines fit that role

    That's really the takeaway here. GSuite has gotten its hooks deep into elementary/secondary education and now that's starting to sweep into the college market.

    Families also shop for new laptops around the holidays, and they'll want something that dovetails with the work kids are doing at school. If the choice is an iOS or Chrome device, the choice becomes a lot easier when they're nearly the same price.

  • by torgian on 9/2/18, 10:29 AM

    Shit at this point I’d rather get a used iPad and keyboard if I wanted something like a Chromebook.

    Or just a used thinkpad.

    But I guess I’m not part of the normal demographic anyway, so....

  • by komali2 on 9/1/18, 9:23 PM

    I'm pretty new to tech, and young in general, but I'm curious why what's happening between the different browsers regarding working together to identically implement JavaScript, thus allowing tons of modern applications to be universal across machines as long as you can install a modern browser, not happen before with other programming languages? Or did they?

    I don't know anything about desktop application development, but for example in college I would use PowerPoint a lot. Was there some specific limitation that made for PowerPoint to be a Windows only thing? Was it that Microsoft just refused to make it for different operating systems? Or was there no point because everyone had windows installed anyway?

    I'm kinda just chewing the fat here but in 2018 with iOS, osx, Android, windows, and Ubuntu being the main operating systems of machines, why'd it take the second level of abstraction of Firefox, Chrome, Opera, and Edge working together to make sharing apps across machines a thing? Like, why didn't, I dunno, some cross platform python library (I know nothing about desktop apps sorry) instead be The Universalizer?

  • by notananthem on 9/1/18, 8:58 PM

    I don't see it a threat, its entirely different segmentation. Microsoft eats up lower pricepoints through its OEM/ODM partners that it can direct by issuing best practice guidances in fit, finish, features, etc and captures what it likes. It does ultra-premium but occasionally dabbles in lower segments- the thing I'm most curious to see is what it considered in the Surface 3 and other slightly more budget conscious releases.

    Google was crap at hardware, are they good now? They're hiring like mad right now for hardware PMs from other orgs, and that'll grab some younger talent, but they need pretty seasoned people to rebuild a whole hardware org. They have good hardware design teams but they're fractured from eng, biz, strat and more.

    You can be good at a network of your ODMs but that doesn't mean the product comes out to target. Chromebooks were positioned as this cheap school thing for a bit, but then the pixel kinda overshot this by a lot.. they need clear segmentation and targeting goals.

  • by woodandsteel on 9/1/18, 8:13 PM

    This development is not surprising. From the beginning, Microsoft's brilliance been in figuring out how pc's could be used in the enterprise. It was only a lucky side-effect that it also became the king of consumer computing.

    A consequence of this is that MS has always focused on making their OS and applications useful for businesses, at a great sacrifice in ease of use and security for consumers. Apple jumped in to focus on ease of use and security, but their computers have always been too expensive for mass adoption.

    Now Google is going for the mass market with a secure and easy to use OS. Microsoft can't really fight back because to do would mean abandoning the business market. And it understandably doesn't want to do that because that's where the big bucks are. So we should expect to see ChromeOS steadily gaining in popularity, though it is an open question as to how far it will also go in the enterprise.

  • by jokoon on 9/2/18, 9:54 AM

    It seems there is a terminal in chromeos. Is there some kind of package manager? I'm just curious is a chromebook is fit for software development, and if g++/clang is running on it.

    If not, I would avoid it. My experience with C++ and macbooks has been pretty bad.

  • by jimmcslim on 9/1/18, 9:09 PM

    > For now, Chrome OS's success seems limited and fairly US-centric.

    Availability of Chromebooks in Australia is still very spotty (can’t get the Pixel easily for example) so the Microsoft hegemony isn’t being threatened Down Under!

  • by orionblastar on 9/2/18, 6:11 AM

    High school my niece goes to gives students free Chromebooks to take home and work on. My son went to a high school that made us buy iPads. So there is an academic issue here and the new Chromebooks might eat iPad sales or cause Apple to make cheaper iPads.

    Windows laptops are a joke because low end laptops uses slow CPUs and Intel graphics. Mid end laptops for $600 have faster CPUs and Nvidia graphics but suffer preloaded bloat and virus issues a Chromebook can avoid.

    I got a 10 year old laptop with Linux Mint on it that runs great. Windows 7 and above run too slow on it.

  • by csomar on 9/1/18, 4:22 PM

    No they are not. We are still not there yet. First, $600 is pretty expensive. Most Windows laptops that I see run on less than $500. Second, they don't have the ecosystem yet.

    Here are things you do on Windows:

    1. Browse the Internet using Chrome.

    2. Play a relatively demanding Video Game.

    3. Run Office, Word and Excel.

    4. Install your Canon Printer and print a few papers.

    5. Plugin your Nikon Camera.

    6. Run Adobe Photoshop to do some tweaking.

    Most people do that on their laptops. We are still far from being 100% cloud. Also ChromeOS is not an improvement over Windows. It is a change of environments. OSX is an improvement. The only deal is that it is prohibitively expensive.

  • by sunstone on 9/2/18, 9:22 AM

    I'm not sure how this article managed to overlook the Asus C302 Chromebook flip which has been out for well over a year now and sells at the $500 price point. Very happy with mine.
  • by sebringj on 9/1/18, 5:25 PM

    I recommended my son and father to get a chromebook. They got the $600 Samsung model that flips back and has a touchscreen with stylist. I think these are great devices and do what most people need to do sans annoyances. My parents bug me much less now on how to do this or that and my son can still learn how to program javascript games not needing to crack into the core but that's still a possibility if you put it in dev mode at some point.
  • by fredley on 9/1/18, 10:37 PM

    I want Chromebooks to dominate the consumer market, to be honest. Hopefully that will push Windows towards dropping bloated consumer-focussed features in lieu of a leaner OS aimed more squarely at the professional market. Currently installing Windows 10 Pro fresh installs an unimaginable quantity of crap. Why is Minecraft on a 'pro' install, and pinned to the Start Menu?
  • by soniman on 9/1/18, 5:19 PM

    One thing that's good about Chromebook is that if I save something, it's in one of two places - Downloads folder or Gdrive. On Windows it could be in Downloads, Desktop, My Docs, some random file, Onedrive, Gdrive, etc etc. I realize this is not a big deal but given so many choices, ultimately files will multiply and spread everywhere.
  • by phobosdeimos on 9/1/18, 6:02 PM

    Look up how much win7 used to cost and how much you have to pay for win10. Microsoft knows that Google is the competition.
  • by mentos on 9/1/18, 6:01 PM

    My dream is to get a light weight laptop with just enough power to send/receive input to/from my more powerful desktop where I do Gpu intensive game development on Windows.

    Sadly Remote Desktop is lacking in a lot of ways mainly the refresh rate makes it very difficult to resolve the rendered scene I’m working on.

    Any suggestions?

  • by xacky on 9/2/18, 1:40 PM

    There's still no official 17 inch Chromebooks out. Why is Google ignoring people who prefer larger devices. Also ChromeOS is absent from high end desktops and workstations. If Google really want to put the pressure on Microsoft then they need to aim there.
  • by michaelmrose on 9/1/18, 7:04 PM

    Soldered in emmc storage seems kind of unattractive to me. 128GB is enough to get by but it really hurts that you can't spend $100 and have 4x as much later.

    Of course you could carry around an external drive but do you want to have to plug in a drive every time you wake up your computer.

  • by sg47 on 9/2/18, 5:56 PM

    I'm looking for a good Chromebook/cheap laptop to take notes and do some lightweight programming. Criteria is good display, decent chrome performance (20 tabs open) and decent battery life (8 hours would be nice). Any recommendations?
  • by yeukhon on 9/1/18, 7:30 PM

    No it is not. You can easily find a $600 or even less equally powerful Windows laptop.
  • by floatboth on 9/1/18, 7:39 PM

    > inexpensive ARM processors rather than more powerful and pricier Intel ones

    I want more powerful ARM ones… RK3399 is a great step in the right direction, but I'd love to see a chromebook with, say, the new Kirin

  • by booleandilemma on 9/1/18, 7:42 PM

    Are they really? Recently I had to choose between a chromebook and a cheap lenovo laptop and I went with the lenovo.32GB just isn’t enough space.
  • by hi41 on 9/2/18, 1:07 PM

    Do Chromebooks have applications to edit videos? For applications like that don't we need PCs?
  • by beerlord on 9/1/18, 3:14 PM

    Chromebooks have one fatal flaw: Microsoft Office on them sucks. You're stuck with side-loading in the Android edition, which is an app with a simplified UI and requiring always-online connection.

    All of this might be OK for a schoolkid, but for anyone else you might as well stick with a Windows laptop for real work, or an iPad for real consumption.

  • by partycoder on 9/1/18, 4:50 PM

    There is no excuse to use Windows anymore.

    Windows' duck taped UI makes absolutely no sense.

    On top of that, you get ads, nagware and your activity data is exfiltrated to their servers... and this is on a product that you have to pay for.

    I don't mind paying for a product, but Windows does not offer any added value.

  • by gd2 on 9/2/18, 7:40 AM

    Wow, 360 Hacker News comments on a Chromebook article
  • by paulcarroty on 9/1/18, 4:41 PM

    $600 chromebooks? REALLY?

    It's better invest that money in new/used laptop.

    They was competitive only with $200-300 prices.