from Hacker News

Amazon's policies promote counterfeiting

by hop on 3/2/18, 1:11 AM with 223 comments

• by RcouF1uZ4gsC on 3/2/18, 2:14 AM

  Apparently, the US Customs and Border Patrol is in charge of seizing counterfeit goods.

  https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/cbp-interce...

  I wonder if contacting US Government representatives to ask them to have CPB investigate Amazon warehouses as a nexus of counterfeit goods would be useful.

  I bet if CPB officials raided an Amazon warehouse and went through and seized all counterfeit goods in the warehouse, Amazon would quickly find a solution to this problem.

• by NathanKP on 3/2/18, 1:46 AM

  Full disclosure I work for Amazon (on the web services side).

  The author of this article clearly doesn't know much about selling on Amazon, because what he is asking for is possible. It's called the Amazon Brand Registry. You can contact the infringment team using the details here and initiate the process of getting your brand / ASIN locked so that other people can't sell it without your permission: https://www.amazon.com/report/infringement

  Also check this out: https://services.amazon.com/brand-registry.html

  If you have a popular product then counterfeiters are unfortunately inevitable, but you do have options to fight back and stop them.

  There is also Brand Gating which is a little harder to get. Look up ASIN or Brand Gating for information. Basically you can order the counterfeit product and report it to Amazon. It can cost a couple thousand in legal fees to register your brand and get all the paperwork unless you are capable of doing it all yourself, but it is possible.

• by dionian on 3/2/18, 1:29 AM

  I ordered an instant pot on amazon. instant pot box shows up, with mfr.s packaging.... I opened it and similar-looking - but much cheaper - chinese knockoff was in box.

  if amazon's customer service wasnt so good i would have dropped them already. (I know it's not them making the mistake, but still..)

  however I buy stuff there much less frequently now since i have no way to know if I'm getting counterfeits for certain types of goods.

• by fencepost on 3/2/18, 1:49 AM

  The writer advises people to "look at the seller," but Amazon's commingling of products means that doing so is often useless. I believe I've also seen mention that there's a way to prevent that by assigning your own numbers and paying Amazon more, but for something like this where there is only one legitimate supplier I'm not sure it would do any good. (edit: NathanKP posted relevant links as I was posting)

  What's amazing to me is that these days I'd consider eBay a safer option for a lot of purchases - at least there I know what seller I'm dealing with.

• by exolymph on 3/2/18, 1:42 AM

  Counterfeit products [1] and scams [2] are persistent problems on Amazon. It's very unfair to the legitimate merchants who are trying to compete without screwing over customers. They've been yelling at Amazon for YEARS to do something about this. Presumably Amazon decided that making it harder to sign up as a third-party seller would hurt their metrics more than it would help customers.

  [1] https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch...

  [2] https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-fraud-scam-sellers.htm...

• by Lazare on 3/2/18, 3:46 AM

  I have absolutely started to reduce my purchases on Amazon due to my lack of confidence in what I'm going to be getting. The counterfeiting issue is real and serious.

  At this point, I trust that if I go to the trouble to ensure it's not "fulfilled by amazon" and I'm buying from the actual seller, I'll probably get a legit product. Otherwise, I have no way of knowing what I'm going to get.

  I continue to be mystified why Amazon doesn't view this as a huge issue.

• by mrarjen on 3/2/18, 8:09 AM

  Really enjoy this post and the reactions of it. I also have been looking around on Amazon for small furniture and some other small products, but as a consumer, a great deal of research is needed to detect fakes or sub par products.

  If you know what you want to buy, you are indeed best off buying directly from the product creators site and not get tempted by far cheaper alternatives amazon suggests... Birkenstock is a great example of this where it escalated https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/22/birkenstock-...

• by z0r on 3/2/18, 1:28 AM

  I think this is a pretty big deal and has been for at least a few years, yet there have been no repercussions for Amazon yet. It feels like it should be illegal to enable this kind of thing.

• by nsx147 on 3/2/18, 3:16 AM

  I have sold on Amazon for about 3 years now, over 2000+ skus FBA. The items I sell are pretty easy to counterfeit (much easier than OPs). There have been plenty of sellers come in and undercut price and subsequently destroy my products ratings because customers received fakes.

  I started moving my products into the Brand Registry and all of a sudden the counterfeit sellers started disappearing...and now they don't exist anymore. So at one point a few years ago I was on this guys side and was starting to write up cease & desists but I believe Amazon is getting better at it. Haven't seen any counterfeit sellers on my listings that last for more than 30 days in a while.

• by kop316 on 3/2/18, 2:14 AM

  I have all but stopped buying from amazon due to this problem. But I have to say, this part bothers me:

  "For the record, I love Amazon as a customer, I buy way too much stuff with Prime, I'm a long shareholder, and think they are on track to become the biggest company in the world (unless they get broken up for anti-trust reasons)."

  If you are actively losing money from this problem and still buy from them, you are actively sabotaging yourself!

• by akeck on 3/2/18, 1:36 AM

  Because of the counterfeiting on Amazon, I’m becoming price-insensitive and ordering direct from brand websites. I’d rather order once at full mark up than burn time dealing with fakes.

• by jnbiche on 3/2/18, 1:56 AM

  I've become quite disenchanted with Amazon because of this counterfeit issue along with the fake review problem. In addition, Amazon customer service -- traditionally excellent -- has only been good to acceptable recently (they've started using Chinese agents who don't really seem to understand American customer service and also sometimes struggle with English).

  I really wanted to drop Prime this year, but the wife uses it for some books and movies she likes and begged me not to. However, I've started ordering my stuff directly from sellers whenever possible. Occasionally, I order from Amazon if I need something quickly, but prefer to order directly even then if the seller has a rush delivery option (attention sellers! always offer an expedited delivery option, even if you think no one will use it!)

• by oldcynic on 3/2/18, 1:33 AM

  This is ruling out Amazon for so many categories of product and has been going on for years.

  Yet they don't seem to be bothered.

  So now I look on Amazon, then see if I can buy direct or from a different retailer.

• by fpvracing on 3/2/18, 1:42 AM

  I designed a hardware product but haven't brought it to market because even if it is successful, Chinese manufacturers will reverse engineer it and then have a cheaper clone on the market within weeks, long before I can recoup even the cost of manufacturing, let alone make a profit. And since I can't afford to pursue legal action, it seems pointless to manufacture the product, and everybody loses. I wonder how much innovation is stifled this way.

• by mullingitover on 3/2/18, 1:41 AM

  My mileage apparently varies, because I've been shopping heavily on Amazon for years and have never had a counterfeit item show up on my doorstep.

• by Khaine on 3/2/18, 10:44 AM

  I've basically stopped buying things from Amazon because it is so hard to tell where your goods are coming from. With co-mingling even if you buy from a legitimate seller it is impossible to ensure that you get a legitimate product.

  I'd rather spend a few extra dollars and remove all of this hassle and buy directly, or from a more trustworthy place.

• by stevbov on 3/2/18, 1:47 AM

  Last year I had two products I bought on Amazon arrive that were obviously previously opened. No warning at all when making the purchase. They didn't appear to be counterfeit but I still returned them. Now I avoid Amazon whenever I can.

• by sokoloff on 3/2/18, 2:04 AM

  > Jeff Bezos, if you're reading this, come on - this is day 2 activity.

  It's always "Day 1" at Amazon.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTwXS2H_iJo

• by thro1237 on 3/2/18, 1:48 AM

  Isn't it possible to bring a class action lawsuit? This is precisely the kind of things that a class action suit is a good remedy for.

• by theonealtair on 3/2/18, 2:18 AM

  This is why I only buy Apple products from Apple, Amazon is flooded with counterfeits.

• by jamesgeck0 on 3/2/18, 5:43 AM

  Counterfeiters on Amazon have been hitting the board game market hard. From an interview [1]:

  > We feel, and this number is speculative (but it's going to be somewhere on that range), that Asmodee North America’s sales are going to be affected somewhere between five and ten million dollars, this year alone. We believe for some games, that more than 70% of all sales in the U.S. market have been counterfeit.

  1. https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/39296/icv2-interview-asm...

• by cjcfjrf on 3/2/18, 2:31 AM

  Not only that, Amazon India openly allows misleading product description and the cse "overlooks" it when you talk to them. In India it's a standard practice to overstate objectively wrong things about products. Eg. Hard drive model number product make: pvc dumbbells vs cheap plastic filled with sand. Yes that's a thing on the site. The attitude of Amazon India is we don't care about bad publicity as long as people are buying from us so not even shaming them here, just mentioning.

• by Keverw on 3/2/18, 2:56 AM

  I always thought the counterfeit good program was fulfillment by Amazon mixing items with the same UPC code.

  I ordered a power supply once and it had all chinese writing on it, and plus it didn't power up unless I kept turning it and fiddled with the connector. Was concerned, so sent it back. Didn't want it to catch on fire. It had a English brand name on the listing though too.

  I was looking at new earpods, and even in the reviews people mentioned they got fakes. https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD827LL-EarPods-Remote-Mic/dp/B... - I went to a local walmart instead and bought it online. Even Walmart, NewEgg and Sears website's have the same program as Amazon with counterfeits.

  I don't trust them as much as I did when shopping online. The NBC nightly news did a story about this last week. https://youtu.be/klbPhwE44hI

  "Ships from and sold by Amazon" I guess to look for... I still use Amazon for AWS and Kindle though... But for Physical products I feel like I got to be more careful. Edit: It looks like from "0xcde4c3db" Post, it still can happen even if sold by Amazon. Wow.

  One of the things they recommended to do is to buy directly from the brand's website, which is kinda annoying since need a bunch of accounts, and Amazon Prime is a nice benefit too you can't use externally. Which is a great thing for digital nomads who don't want to wait for a package in the same area too long.

  Another thing is fake memory too. SD Cards and flash drives. If you search "2TB USB flash drive" on Amazon and scroll down some. There's some 2-2.5 star ones where some of the reviews mention it's fake. One of them even mentioned no company currently makes a 2TB USB Flash drives. However they do make 2TB USB SSD's.

  Plus I wouldn't want to try your luck with some of these items, as if you they are fake and you return it. I'm unsure if Amazon counts those returns towards the total returns before they close your account. I wouldn't want to risk it and be proactive. If i'm unsure about a item, it's less of a headache to just buy elsewhere.

  I hope they solve this somehow, as Amazon is really convenience and I really want to trust them more. There's really no other online store like them that's a one stop for all. Still like Amazon but got to be more careful with all these stories lately.

• by dalbasal on 3/2/18, 12:26 PM

  A large chunk of the most important and/or profitable tech businesses are really private “markets.” That is, they don’t just sell goods and services. I would put all advertising businesses in that category too

  Amazon is an obvious (and very literal) example, as are app stores. But, Youtube is another example. People post videos. People watch videos. People place ads on videos. Google is at the centre coordinating this stuff.

  Very few markets are cleverly designed or run. Adwords was an example of a clever one. The auction, is the centrepiece and it reached its current state pretty early in adwords’ history. It was designed cleverly, with a ton of attention to incentives and 2nd order effects.

  Youtube, as a marketplace, is terribly designed. The “monetisation” systems are almost designed to produce spam, and discourage unique “maker” content. The differentials in earnings of similar content on youtube, vs any other medium are immense.

  Why does a podcast, TV show or other medium (lets assume it’s the same content) make so much more than a youtube channel. How is it possible that a million views a week is not enough to pay for a 2-man basement operation?

  The big boys need to get some economists on board, good ones.

• by peterwwillis on 3/2/18, 1:32 AM

  Amazon will replace whatever stupid crap you end up with. This is why it doesn't hurt their brand. You know they will fix it, so it's just a minor inconvenience to the customer, most of the time. Meanwhile, it shuts down businesses.

  You'd think politicians might care about this, but they're too busy handing out billions to get them to move to their state.

• by sitkack on 3/2/18, 2:10 AM

  They sold me a counterfeit Horowitz and Hill [0], since it was outside of the return window the support person basically said, "you have an interesting memento".

  [0] https://artofelectronics.net/the-book/counterfeit-editions/

• by hapnin on 3/2/18, 3:39 AM

  Ironically, Alibaba is trying to fix counterfeits in the supply chain. Amazon should follow suit.

  https://medium.com/@alitech_2017/blockchain-based-qa-the-end...

• by tylerjwilk00 on 3/2/18, 9:22 AM

  I have been purchasing more and more from Walmart. Initially I thought it was hopeless for Walmart to catch up to Amazon but counterfeits are destroying my trust in Amazon and Walmart has really stepped up their online ordering the last couple years. Amazon is feeling increasingly like eBay.

• by hoelle on 3/2/18, 1:47 AM

  Jeeze, looking at the product page it's really hard to spot the seller and make sure you've chosen a legit vendor.

  Also, Anchors are a great idea. I'm a VR developer and my desk is pretty crowded with headsets, so I just ordered a few to try them out. Hopefully the real ones arrive!

• by siner on 3/2/18, 8:52 AM

  Oh my god, I want this product(original) but it is not available on amazon.de! It would be amazing to get your products in Germany. I just ordered it on amazon.co.uk as shipping was less expensive than getting it on www.elevationlab.com.

• by jmartinpetersen on 3/2/18, 8:27 AM

  Are there the same problems with counterfeiting in their grocery department? How can you be sure that your organic flour, almonds and coffee or are really what they claim and not some relabelled non-organic GMO product?

• by RyanShook on 3/2/18, 2:52 AM

  Fed Chair Jerome Powell’s response when asked earlier today why inflation has remained so low for so long: “It’s a phenomenon we don’t completely understand... it could be partially explained by the Amazon effect.”

• by enknamel on 3/2/18, 10:48 PM

  > And Jeff Bezos, if you're reading this, come on - this is day 2 activity.

  That is a serious burn. It really drives home the point of how serious this issue is.

• by CamelCaseName on 3/2/18, 2:02 PM

  You should not have left a one star review on your competition. That's a surefire way to land in hot water if they report you.

• by wybiral on 3/2/18, 1:50 AM

  Amazon should do what they can to weed out this kind of thing.

  But consumers can also be more aware of the sellers on Amazon.

• by DrScump on 3/2/18, 8:48 AM

  I wonder how tolerant of Ring product knock-offs Amazon will be now.

• by JohnJamesRambo on 3/2/18, 3:53 AM

  What do people here think of rfid blockchain products like VeChain that are hoping to solve this problem? Is it a solution?

• by IntronExon on 3/2/18, 1:20 AM

  I used to shop waaaay too much on Amazon, but I’ve largely stopped and almost entirely as a result of counterfeits. If I wanted the experience of shopping in an open air market, I’d hoof it to one. I also really feel for people like the OP who do nothing wrong, but have a good idea and market it successfully.

  Amazon, I’d be back in a heartbeat if you fixed this. Sellers and buyers deserve better, and this kind of thing, along with bullshit reviews are a cancer in your business. If you wait for the first frank signs of disease to register, you’ll already be in terminal decline.

• by sneak on 3/2/18, 10:38 AM

  Dear OP: I’d prefer a cheaper, “counterfeit” version of the product you discuss to the one you produce.

• by hemoglob2 on 3/2/18, 1:39 AM

  while i agree with your post, "The current counterfeit seller, suiningdonghanjiaju Co Ltd (yeah they sound legit), " could be construed as a racist comment