from Hacker News

A growing number of early Facebook employees regret the world they created

by dodders on 11/11/17, 2:45 PM with 80 comments

  • by jasode on 11/11/17, 3:51 PM

    >“Studies have actually proven that the more connected we are, the happier we are, and the healthier we are,” [Zuckerberg] said this summer at Facebook’s first ever communities summit in Chicago, where he announced a new, idealistic mission statement: “To give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together.”

    If that's what MZ believes, he's being selective in the studies he's reading. It's frightening that we have a very smart guy with a fatally flawed anthropological view of Facebook's effect.

    Mass media technologies like Facebook/tv/radio/newspapers actually have the opposite effect: They increase tribalism and polarization.

    Yes, social networks bring some people together... like distant relatives sharing more photos than the Kodak film days. Or a group that shares a hobby like anonymous unrelated guitar players talking about gear on a music forum.

    However, asking for communication platforms to bridge the gap of Democrats vs Republicans or Christians vs Muslims or Pro-life vs Pro-choice doesn't work. What really happens is those groups use the technology to dig in their heels even further and double-down on their entrenched positions. Tribalism amplified to the max.

  • by apozem on 11/11/17, 3:43 PM

    One of the most troubling articles I've read recently is an Atlantic piece examining Facebook's effect on kids' brains. Zuckerberg can say connection makes us happier all he wants, but Facebook can make children miserable.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/what-...

  • by eighthnate on 11/12/17, 2:04 AM

    It's relentless. I've never seen anything like this. Everyday the media has an attack piece on social media and tech companies.

    Just a few hours before this story, we had one titled "Is it time to stop trusting Google search?".

    It's as if someone gave a command and all the media is acting in unison.

    Lets see what stories tomorrow brings. Honestly, there hasn't been a day in a few months without an attack on social media and tech companies.

  • by kelukelugames on 11/11/17, 3:13 PM

    Can you change the title to something other than a yes/no question? The subtitle is more informative.

    "In Silicon Valley, a growing number of early Facebook employees regret the world they created."

  • by Kiro on 11/11/17, 4:36 PM

    My usage of Facebook hits a sweet spot I don't know where to find otherwise. I mainly use it to follow music producers, indie game developers and other creators. That's basically what my feed is for.

    Apart from that I use Messenger to talk to friends and relatives.

    I feel like I'm the only happy Facebook user here.

  • by ekianjo on 11/11/17, 4:03 PM

    > where he announced a new, idealistic mission statement: “To give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together.”

    You should read: "power to build community and bring the world together... inside our walled garden".

    Facebook has never been about building technologies aiming at decentralizing the web, so any power they'll give people will be on their own rules and domain.

  • by mrits on 11/11/17, 4:30 PM

    I took a ride in my friend's Ferrari yesterday. It took me a few hours after lunch to recover and work on what now seemed like a very mundane project. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't need Facebook to feel left behind.
  • by Analemma_ on 11/11/17, 5:31 PM

    Is Zuckerberg actually a True Believer? I've never gotten the sense that he's an idealist or really thinks Facebook is a force for good. I think he just says these things because, as the founder and CEO, he has to publicly defend the product.

    When the cameras are off, he's all about the money. Don't forget that he once called people who willingly upload their data to Facebook "dumb fucks". Yes, I know, it was a long time ago and he's matured since then, whatever. It's still a smoking gun that Facebook was not created with idealism about "human connections" in mind. At best that part came later, if it came at all.

  • by aphextron on 11/11/17, 4:14 PM

    Anecdotally, I told a friend last night that I had deleted my Facebook 6 months ago so they wouldn't wonder why I had de-friended them. They said they had had the exact same conversation like 3 times this month already with other people. Facebook may continue expanding around the world, but it's popularity has certainly peaked in the US.
  • by to_bpr on 11/11/17, 5:43 PM

    There has been no shortage of studies and reports on the damage social media is doing society, especially to the young. Though I'm glad to see a movement forming against it, it's sad and somewhat pathetic that the conversation is hinging on the refusal to accept election defeat by one half of the electorate.

    Those involved in developing, expanding, etc. social media know what they're complicit in and it extends far beyond, and is far worse, than simply having some moron elected.

  • by QAPereo on 11/11/17, 3:21 PM

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!
  • by relics443 on 11/12/17, 1:13 AM

    "and how Russia used it during the election to elect Trump"

    Stopped reading right about there.

  • by bertil on 11/11/17, 5:47 PM

    I think people are confusing two things: Facebook and its first and main product, the News Feed (and to an extend, the advertising network embedded into it).

    Facebook, or rather the Social and later, Entities Graphs are essential essential capacities. They are what really matters: who do you trust, who do you care about. Those are key, they are heavily defended from pretenders and they keep on unlocking a lot of essential value to any service leveraging it.

    The best illustration of what that Graph represents is Messenger: you give some people the right to notify you (and a subset, access to an overlooked secondary Inbox); that service is essential. Having institutions like your airline, payments, be allowed in there is a big step forward. If Marcus manages that well, that extension will unlock a lot of the promisses of email, structurally removing the spam.

    Having the News Feed inform that social and interest graph is a great way to get up-to-date information, but it comes with an indeed agressive behavioural growth hack. I do not believe that the level alarm around that is warranted, but what people see, political and social polarisation, etc. all those are real issues that Facebook Researchers have looked into. Other researchers have looked into that too, but usually with a very partial view and no access to extensive dataset.

    I believe it is a problem that openly critical researchers can’t access that database; I don’t think that granting them access will necessarily help, though, because most media will happily apply a big selection bias on whatever comes out of academia, as they already do. But in spite of that limit, internal researchers have enough of freedom to point out issues. There are issues: they are a small team, too US-focused, tend to have liberal-intellectual bias, etc. but they feel, and are, responsible for those issues. More importantly, they are managed by people very willing to take in detailed, informed criticism.

    Facebook changed their core values over what happened during the campaign. They willingly identified and explained what happened, shared details about ‘the Russian interference’ which was a lot of about weaponasing dissent than ads. They did that because, unlike “the press” they have the means, intellectual and technical, feel the responsability and see it as their mission to help democracy, not let the party of their owner win no matter what.

    I do not think that Facebook can’t close the News Feed, or revamp it entirely. They believe that its overall impact on democracy is still clearly positive because they measure it (quite well, actually; I have doubts about other aspects of their methodology but not that one). They have identified key ways it is being abused and they are working on fixes.

    The hearing in the Senate was an ignorant and populist pandering from politicians whom I otherwise admired, them insistently proving they couldn’t get the sense of the scale of the transformation, but Facebook is catching up faster than ageing politicians.

    Wising up, they will implement soluitons, most of them invisible. I suspect one of them is flagging aggressively partisan groups, preventing rage-baiting. I wished one of them was raising the profile of “the smartest of your opponent”. I know they will try, measure, re-think and improve their solution.

    And so will the people who think chaos raises their profile, but not as well -- because they can’t survive the scrutiny that Facebook willfully accepted.

    I remember my history class (in France) about “the Dreyfuss case”, a deeply polarising debate in the early XXth century (in abstract: Country vs. Justice; in practice: should a French officer condemned of treason, transparently because of prejudice for his Jewish heritage, be freed after evidence proved him innocent?) but I’ve been an exchange students in enough countries to know every country had gone through something similar. No one was in charge, and the only solution then was to forget; the Dreyfuss case stopped becoming an issue with WWI.

    Facebook is not responsible for Trump’s election, nor are they for Obama’s election; neither is Cambridge Analytica or any other single actor. But both those, and probably a couple more institution have the means to understand what happened, and provide some resolution -- the resolution pro- and anti-Dreyfuss never got. Well-intended actors will offer and implement solutions. Transparency in advertising (what Facebook suggested first) is little, but it will give people a sense of what is happening.

    Don’t confuse Facebook, a project to make social trust something computer can process, with the News Feed, an implementation of it. The former is being defended; it stumbled by allowing fake profiles in, but learned from that; the other relies on behavioural hacks that are being analysed in detail, for the first time. A new threat on the later emerged last year and it is being patched. But if the issue is impulse control and cannot be leveraged for good, getting rid of the News Feed is not out of the question. As far as I can tell, it would simply make things worst.

  • by kown223 on 11/11/17, 3:34 PM

    Wish someone will ask Zuckerberg if he feels stupider now that he no longer very young, and why we should listen to him by his words he is getting stupider by the day.
  • by hi5eyes on 11/11/17, 6:41 PM

    "if the headline is a question the answer is no"
  • by sidcool on 11/11/17, 3:54 PM

    I think if a product like FB is allegedly ruining people's lives, it's on people not FB. It's not like the opioid crisis. People can leave FB anytime without withdrawals.
  • by chiefalchemist on 11/11/17, 5:53 PM

    > "Facebook’s vertiginous rise from “Hot or Not” knockoff to extra-governmental digital nation-state has alarmed a growing number of its original architects. “They look at the role Facebook now plays in society, and how Russia used it during the election to elect Trump, and they have this sort of ‘Oh my God, what have I done’ moment,” one early employee told my colleague Nick Bilton last month."

    I read no further.

    First, yes someone ran some ads, but to what end? Where they actually effective? Of the people who we fed said ads how many noticed them? Where of age to vote? Where real people not bots? AND changed their vote?

    Where is the data that supports Russia elected Trump? Where?

    Do I believe FB (and all - tech - companies) should be aware of the unintended of its products? Of course. Shiney and new is not a free pass on - moral, ethical and/or social - responsibility.

    I'm not a Trump supporter. He'll be gone soon enough. However the incompetence and Orwellian habits of the mainstream media will remain. That should be a major concern for everyone.

  • by navium on 11/11/17, 4:03 PM

    Everyone against Facebook is just jealous. Admit it. You don't want a world that's not connected, and Facebook executed it brilliantly.