by elberto34 on 3/13/17, 3:20 PM with 249 comments
by brightball on 3/13/17, 4:10 PM
As soon as having a bachelors degree became almost an expectation, not having one became a problem to be avoided. We have people borrowing money to go to school because they think they have to...not because they necessarily even need to. Many of the best programmers I know never even went to college...they are just interested in the subject and taught themselves.
At the same time, we have a public school system that after 18 years with a child...has not actually prepared them to get a job. That's borderline criminal IMHO.
I always wonder what the effect would be of transitioning public high schools to a structure closer to Cornell's one-course-at-a-time approach (http://www.cornellcollege.edu/one-course-at-a-time/). It seems like giving kids the opportunity to deep dive into one thing (actually, learn it instead of memorize stuff) would be more effective. At the same time, scheduling of classes that taught real skills would a lot simpler.
Just imagine a gardening and cooking class where you could teach:
1. Plant biology and genetics of seeds 2. Chemistry and Soil Biology, Composting, Decomposition. 3. Use geometry to design raised bed frames 4. Learn some vocational carpentry to build raised bed frames 5. Plant in different environments, track growth, production, measures in a scientific experiment 6. Learn to cook some different recipes with what you've grown as well as how different temperatures affect what you're cooking (caramelization of onions, etc)
In a single intensive class you can bring together so many subjects and life skills that seem otherwise unrelated on their own.
Heaven forbid you take it to the next level and get into programming a farm bot.
by mywittyname on 3/13/17, 4:48 PM
Yes, college is expensive and I absolutely think something should be done to resolve that. And certainly not everyone needs a BS to be productive citizens. But societies "reverence" for the Bachelors degree was earned. Historically, these programs equip people with the background and education necessary to advance their careers.
Like many people here, I have a BSCS, and if computing became obsolete tomorrow, I feel entirely confident in my ability to transition into many other technical careers. My feeling is that a BS should be designed to open up entire classes of career options for people. But I also feel that people who opt for technical training in lieu of general education shouldn't be upset when they find out they can't transition as easily into other fields that require skills they may have never learned.
I honestly think this article serves as a cautionary tail to reinforce Bachelors "reverence" more than it does to dispel it. A person who spent years learning the depths of Italian cooking shouldn't be surprised when people don't want him managing their businesses. Knowing how to field for truffles and prepare them in a traditional way is nice, but it's not analogous to knowing how to run the logistics of a business.
by btkramer9 on 3/13/17, 6:00 PM
"my nephew was set to graduate from Maryland’s Towson University with a degree in political science. After six long years,"
Six years for a degree in political science. You have to actively try to take that long to graduate. Maybe he changed majors.
"Holding up their son’s transcript, his adviser pointed out that he had taken the same economics course twice—one year apart. My nephew hadn’t noticed."
Really? I've met plenty of people in college who would do things like this. They all had no motivation or interest to graduate. They were there just because their parents made them and could afford it. I think this defends the authors point. However, using two people who clearly have no idea how to pave their own path to a successful life should be used as an example to argue against universities and trade schools.
Maybe the author is trying to say its the high schools fault for not teaching them. I disagree. Everytime I've seen behavior like this it's because the student just doesn't care or their parents have plenty of money and know they'll be fine no matter how bad they do.
by hectorr on 3/13/17, 4:59 PM
The organization that promised to hire him ran the admissions process, set the curriculum, and after training screened him into a particular path for at least the first stage of his new career. He was surrounded for four years by people who will be his professional peers for the entirety of his career. He knows that the likelihood of him reaching the pinnacle of his profession is increased substantially through this network.
Obviously the military is well set up to do this. I am surprised though that other industries haven't attempted to build schools to train their respective employee bases.
by pascalxus on 3/13/17, 4:55 PM
by arrty88 on 3/13/17, 10:14 PM
I know plenty of folks that went to Towson and the only thing that they could do after freshman year was funnel a beer. I know a few that went on to pursue respected middle class careers in tech, legal, education, and health care.
When will our youth finally start taking responsibility for their own actions or lack there of?
by GrinningFool on 3/13/17, 4:23 PM
> After three years in a college-based apprenticeship
> program and three years of solid work experience, he
> was still the equivalent of a brand-new high-school
> graduate in the eyes of higher education.
by m23khan on 3/13/17, 4:22 PM
In addition, high school should have 'guest' speaker from different lines of work come in (engineer, scientist, mechanic, doctor, HVAC, florist, baker, etc.) and tell grade 12 students about their job responsibilities, how much money they make and advise students frankly about the job.
Only then the kids can decide with full knowledge what they would like to pursue and their expectations would be realistic.
by lordnacho on 3/13/17, 5:03 PM
The current system does not leave much in the way of learning things (or at least getting credit) later on. This is a problem, because your average 18-22 year old knows nothing about what work they'll find satisfying, or what work will be in demand.
You also don't know what you'll actually be learning. For instance I did management classes at a well know university. Did I expect to learn something about how to manage? Yes. Did I learn anything about how to manage? No, that's not what management class is about. I suspect many people had similar experiences with their classes. To be fair engineering classes are not about how to be an engineer either, so I don't think it's a science/humanities thing.
What you do find out in uni is that pretty much anything academic can be learned if you dedicate some time to it. Read a few books about economics, and you'll know the major ideas of that field, presented in a somewhat coherent fashion.
So what we need is a way for someone who's found an interest to be able to pursue that. You work a bit as a coder, and you realise you should get a CS degree. So you find a course, read, practice, do an exam.
What's important is people who've discovered this need tend to be in a different life situation from ordinary college attendees. They might have work already, family, and so on. So incentives need to align to allow people to learn things without tearing up their whole life.
by mti27 on 3/13/17, 7:10 PM
1. Author complains her lazy nephew's approach to school (and resulting Political Science degree) did not result in a good paying job.
2. Author complains her other nephew's lack of a degree and previous chef jobs did not result in a good paying job.
3. Author advocates for community colleges, blames higher-ed for being "too rigid" for her nephews, and says how much better Germany and other European countries are at training.
by MBlume on 3/13/17, 6:21 PM
by arca_vorago on 3/13/17, 6:11 PM
In this day and age, what we need is some sort of more granular description of education and experience. I don't have a finance degree, but I've gone through the Yale econ lectures online.... how do I reflect that knowledge gained when all an employer wants is where did you graduate?
I see granular descriptions like this all the time on certain forums, down to people listing their audacity courses, tech certs, etc.
We need to find ways to revive intellectual curiosity and a yearning for knowledge in the masses, not stifle it by arbitrarily tying it down with businesses wants, especially in an information age where much of it is freely available online.
by blizkreeg on 3/13/17, 4:27 PM
by gozur88 on 3/13/17, 5:35 PM
by segmondy on 3/13/17, 4:41 PM
by jknoepfler on 3/13/17, 5:49 PM
The fact that Americans are some of the least intellectually engaged people on the planet is not proof that we need better alternatives to college. We need better alternatives to intellectual disengagement.
by bonesmoses on 3/13/17, 3:55 PM
by taeric on 3/13/17, 4:14 PM
Which, I should add, I'm not against.
by typetypetype on 3/13/17, 4:14 PM
by paulus_magnus2 on 3/14/17, 2:08 PM
Technology (streaming) enables everyone to have MIT grade education for free (theory part). Exams could be paid. The only labour intensive part of education is the practical part. This could be paid or community based co-study.
by ianai on 3/13/17, 5:51 PM
If you can't afford insurance then you're stuck paying out of pocket. By the "one price" rule, doctors have to charge an individual the same they charge insurance. An individual cannot strike a deal as easily with a provider as an insurance company can - so they wind up paying 10-100x what an insurance company would. Notice, that's not saying anything about what an insured person would pay.
There's no corollary to that for education. People finance their education (largely) with loans and up front. They're striking a deal based on what they expect their future income to be. That future income, by the way, probably won't be realized for the majority. For those it is, it may not be realized until 5 or even 10 years down the road. By that point, the loan payments have already started and may have already been scheduled to be paid back completely.
America needs a new economic model. It needs an economic model that allocates nails and food differently than it allocates healthcare and education. Right now, it allocates immediate needs the same way it allocates 'possible demands'. Financial companies estimate 'possible demands' on imperfect data across imperfect realities. Because those two things are not the same, they need to be handled differently.
by wink on 3/14/17, 9:39 AM
But maybe the vocational training is better institutionalized here, so people can actually earn enough as a craftsman or in the service industry.
by WhiteSource1 on 3/15/17, 8:52 AM
by mercurialshark on 3/13/17, 5:29 PM
There certainly isn't profound respect or reverence for a bachelor's degree itself, from employers or anyone else. However, there is an expectation of social and to some degree, field specific exposure.
Perhaps the point of the article is there are far more useful ways to gauge someone's career/field specific potential than a bachelor's degree. And if there are more practical assessment tools than not having a bachelor's degree shouldn't be a barrier to entry.
by svnsets on 3/13/17, 9:35 PM
- How to borrow tens of thousands of dollars without any concrete evidence that I would be able to pay it back
- How to google (arguably a good skill, but not worth a five-figure price tag)
- How to write small
- How to misuse big words
- How to misuse buzzwords
- How to use Dreamweaver (I later learned that the correct way to use Dreamweaver is to uninstall it from your computer)
- How websites were made in 2004 (this was in 2011-2013)
Things I was forced to learn after college to be even remotely relevant:
- Every single aspect of my job as a lead software engineer
by adrianratnapala on 3/13/17, 6:47 PM
That said, I would like to see aprentices rather than interns at my big software company.
by ThrustVectoring on 3/13/17, 6:48 PM
by Overtonwindow on 3/13/17, 7:09 PM
by Afforess on 3/13/17, 5:41 PM
by Mc_Big_G on 3/13/17, 6:19 PM
by upofadown on 3/13/17, 5:45 PM
by randyrand on 3/14/17, 6:05 AM
by rc_bhg on 3/13/17, 5:38 PM
by aanm1988 on 3/13/17, 7:25 PM
That's not a white collar job.