by fatherofone on 3/8/17, 12:18 AM with 511 comments
I argued many good programmers have family with kids and still manage to keep up. They brushed me off saying it's just not possible or they don't look after their kids.
When i look up the internet I find people doing full time job delivering products while having a family and some still find plenty of time to blog or write books. How is this possible? Are these people super-human? How are you all doing or managing if you have kids/family?
by rachelandrew on 3/8/17, 4:09 PM
I've only ever done this with a child to take care of, and I've done it by simply working every possible moment I could, and being organised and focused with my time. However being able to provide for her, made that worthwhile. I started my own business when she was still only at school half days, and we talked about work, and why I needed to work, and that work was where money came from. The money to eat, have a home, and do nice things together.
I count myself lucky that I get to do things I enjoy. However it is amazing what can be achieved with hard work and focus, and a purpose.
by pendu on 3/8/17, 5:33 AM
I am writing this (comment), as I put my son to sleep. He is almost 4 & wants me to be in the room as he drifts to sleep. So i am sitting beside his bed (after an evening full of quality time with him), checking up on left over work for the day (& hackernews)
We just had the second one - who is 3 months old now. So it's still adjusting phase for all of us at home. Sometimes, I just wonder, how people have/manage time with 3 or 4 kids. I seem to be struggling with 2.
Let me write down, what works for me/us:
1. Early dinner & 8 pm bed time for kids gives me 2-3 hours every night. Sometimes, I choose to work on side projects/hobbies. Sometimes, I just binge watch netflix with my wife. Sometimes, I make my kids bedtime my own & wake up early next morning. It depends.
2. On weekends, afternoons - I can easily get a couple of hours - when kids go to nap. Of course, this is not working out recently, as our new born colludes with the elder one - and they nap at different times.
3. What really would help me - and i struggle with this - if i have clear priorities in my head - what I want to achieve in the 'extra time' that I have got. The clearer the goal, better the results.
Ultimately, I have realized, kids give me far more joy than anything work related can. However, hats off to all of us parents - who are juggling of priorities - work - life & trying to do the best we can.
by daxfohl on 3/8/17, 3:20 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm a passable dad, spend as much time with kids as possible, take them out to libraries and parks and try to teach them things. But in the back of my head most of that time I'm still lamenting the things that I'm not able to do and that I'll probably never be able to accomplish, wondering if this was the right decision. But it seems almost heretical these days to admit that. I can't be the only one, right?
by jcpst on 3/8/17, 1:17 AM
I usually have about 4-5 hours of time after the kids go to bed. During this time I either program, talk with my wife, work on mixing records for clients (I'm also an audio engineer), compose music, rehearse with my band, research interesting things, etc.
If you are with a partner, try offering to watch the kids and suggest they do something enjoyable for themselves. This not only gives some quality time with the kids, it also makes it a lot easier to ask for time to do the things you want, or even have your partner reciprocate.
by laoba on 3/8/17, 1:43 AM
Programming couldn't bring me any of the happiness that being with my children could.
by jonaf on 3/8/17, 2:00 AM
It's very challenging, but at the same time, much more fulfilling. I find myself more focused and therefore more efficient with my time. I learn but don't spend time going down rabbit holes. I ponder philosophy as I play with my children, and I often learn so much from them. And, their bed time is 2-3 hours before mine, so naturally I'm able to spend quality time with my wife, enjoy a hobby (I'm a guitarist, thinking of picking up piano), or get in some extra work or side projects.
by xrd on 3/8/17, 5:40 AM
Get clear on the myths you develop after having kids. The biggest for me is: I only have ten minutes here, fifteen minutes there. I need focused hours of time to build something. That is just a story.
When my first child was born, I used the time to write an app late at night while I was getting my wife some sleep. I called it the one handed blogging tool, because I needed a way to blog with one hand while I was holding my sleeping son: http://blog.teddyhyde.com/2013/04/03/teddy-hyde-the-no-compr...
When my daughter was born two years later, my wife was so exhausted she would go to bed at 8. I'd get my son to sleep and then promised myself I would write for just fifteen minutes before bed. That usually turned into an hour or two and three years later I had written a book for O'Reilly: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/mobile/0636920043027.do
My third child was born three months ago. I wonder what myths I'll make up and will stop me and which I'll wake up to and empower myself through.
I'm not the greatest developer, I struggled with the Google interview I got. But, success is 90% perspiration and 10% ingenuity. Who cares if you are sweating because you are exhausted and sleep deprived caring for infants as compared to pulling all night coding sessions?
And, I'd never trade any accomplishment, no matter what, for the connection I have with my kids. Nothing. I cry a little every day when I look at them and think I could have missed this if I gave in to my arrogance and fear about relationships.
by mempko on 3/8/17, 1:01 AM
by brightball on 3/8/17, 3:21 AM
That'll put things in perspective.
Now I'm a lot more selective about what I devote my time to learning. I'm skeptical of new language offerings. If a language doesn't give me a reason other than being a different flavor of C for using it, it doesn't even cross my radar. I'm more of a server side, devops, database guy for the most part so I've largely avoided the framework a week craziness in javascript world.
You pick your battles. Something looks cool...great. Does it really add any value beyond my current tools...?
Since getting back into a full time job about 4 years ago there are 2 technologies that have sufficiently captured my interest that I make time for them. Those are PostgreSQL and Elixir.
As it turns out, because of the two of those there's very little that comes on my radar that makes me say...I need to learn that. Most new tech that comes out seems to live in the land of edge cases that I may need one day, but don't have a reason to dive into.
IBM's Watson API's are probably the only thing I could see really grabbing my attention in the last year or so. You pick your battles.
by patgenzler on 3/8/17, 12:41 AM
by samlittlewood on 3/8/17, 12:27 PM
Don't use the computer to waste time - if I need decompression time, try and make it doing something w/ kids (LEGO!)
A solid dev. environment where you can walk up, crank an iteration, and walk away. (Like in the time it takes a kettle to boil)
Learning to code in my head - basically planning the path of changes/tests I will make next time I am back at my machine. It feels to me somewhat like the 'method of loci' - a definite journey. Often times, the plan goes awry, but the successes make it worth it. After 12 years of reading to the kids, I can do this whilst reading a story to them :).
by johnwheeler on 3/8/17, 5:53 PM
I've taught myself Swift and Cocoa:
https://github.com/johnwheeler/CocoaProgramming
released open source frameworks:
https://github.com/johnwheeler/flask-ask
https://github.com/johnwheeler/flask-live-starter
and have had plenty of time to pursue interesting side projects:
I also spend plenty of meaningful time with my kids reading them books, going to the park, playing with toys, and day dreaming. Stop watching T.V., playing video games, and making BS excuses for being distracted from life.
It's not a tradeoff--you don't have to choose one over the other. _No one_ is so busy they don't have a few hours of down time a week. It's how you choose to spend it.
Incidentally for myself, with kids, a full workload, and pursuit of projects that interest me, I still find myself with too much time to know what to do with and squander a good portion of it.
The best thing you can do for your kids is teach by example. If you spend all your free time with them and grow up bitter that you didn't accomplish what you wish you would have, you're creating a shitty template for them mold themselves against. Let them watch you reading books, building things, crashing and burning, and chasing your dreams instead.
by bsvalley on 3/8/17, 11:46 AM
It sounds pretty bad but as a parent that's what you do everyday, which makes it easier for you to switch between work and personal life. You reuse the same pattern and it's all about time management rather than trying to fit a task that requires deep thinking, in your busy schedule. For me reaching that quiet moment where my brain is fully awake is way too unpredictable.
So you have to take control of your time by not relying on your brain power too much. Then if you happen to get a quiet moment at home ready to think, nothing stops you from coding or learning new things. The rest is all about teaching your kids rather than staying up to date with the latest framework or programming language. Young people will do it faster and better than you, it will be too hard for you to compete. Let's face it, this industry is all about performance, competition, bonuses. You don't want to be in this position.
by madhadron on 3/8/17, 7:55 AM
The other is that you realize that you can accomplish significant things by stringing together scraps of time and making sure you don't obsess over minutiae. Or, more directly, when you've got twenty minutes to write, you're not going to concern yourself with the font.
by nscalf on 3/8/17, 6:52 PM
I've heard comments like this in every possible form before---"Once you get out of college and get a job, you won't have time to...", "Once you're at a startup, you won't have time to...", "Once you start volunteering after work, you won't have time for...".
It's nonsense, you make time for what you think is important. I wake up at 5:30 am to train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I read when I'm commuting, I work hard at my startup, I teach a few nights a week. I plan things out ahead of time and stick to my plans. I don't have kids, but when I do I'll adjust my schedule to make sure I can keep doing what I think is important (kids Jiu-Jitsu starts at 5 years old).
I never found the argument that you won't have time to be very compelling. People who complain about not having time seem to usually be the person who is caught up on every tv show and wake up at 9 to get to work at 9:30.
I think the easiest way to build these habits is to make a plan and stick to it. You want to go to the gym? Get up before work and go. Period. If you aren't getting up 40 minutes early to exercise, you're not busy, you're lazy. Being a good parent definitely takes up a chunk of time, but you can always find time.
by yawz on 3/8/17, 4:48 PM
As a general principle, it's all about "priorities", and "how bad you want it?".
Most of us have time for things other than work and family (unless, of course, you're a single parent trying to juggle 2 jobs, etc.)
Instead of listening to music during commute, one can listen to professional podcasts or talks (youtube to mp3 is great).
Instead of watching TV you can read a book or program.
Instead of spending time on sites like Hacker News (I'm not trying to be cute) you can spend that time on your higher priorities.
I think we all have time for our top priorities. It's just a matter of reordering that list.
by unsigner on 3/8/17, 10:59 AM
I still think I made the right decision, mind you. I believe having kids and taking care of them is the right thing to do, and will be the most important thing I've done with my life in 10-20 years when a successfully delivered build or a Metacritic point here or there wouldn't mean shit. I just don't want to fool myself or anyone else that my job performance hasn't suffered.
by cyberferret on 3/8/17, 5:19 AM
That is really the secret - reduce constant interruptions, so it may mean trading time between you and your life partner and other kids etc. Basically take up extra load with baby duties so they can get sleep/work etc., and in return, arrange for 2 to 4 hour blocks of time where you can cut code or learn new techniques uninterrupted.
Good Luck. Oh, and it does get better years later when your kids show an interest in your work and ask you to teach them! :)
by ghettoimp on 3/8/17, 2:46 AM
Do whatever you decide you want to do to "keep up" with github, open source, etc. But keep it absolutely as separate as possible from your family time.
When you have a day with the kid, make sure that you disconnect and get yourself as fully as you can into the right mindset. "My job today is to enjoy my time with my son/daughter, to be there for them, to be present with them." Leave your phone at home when you go to the park. Disconnect.
If you find yourself thinking that your parenting time is an annoying distraction from the coding problem you're trying to solve, you're in dangerous territory and need to re-calibrate.
This is a hard lesson that I constantly try to re-learn. When I'm successful, everything is much, much better.
by morbidhawk on 3/8/17, 3:27 AM
Asking questions has helped me a lot questions like "how does this work?" has motivated me to read code (which I think can be more useful than writing code sometimes) and try to learn things as they really are rather than how I assumed they were built (I've discovered some interesting patterns and came to some interesting realizations this way).
I actually try to minimize my time spent reading blogs and books but sometimes I find wikipedia to be very good at giving me really good information that isn't as dogmatic or opinionated.
by flurdy on 3/8/17, 2:47 AM
I hack away for an hour each way, especially on my home journeys. I actually appreciate the long train journey. Thankfully it is all one journey without changes. And train delays once I am on the train I don't actually mind. Though I go first class so I have a guaranteed seat with table and comfort. Otherwise, I'd be a miserable sod.
Though I also had to cut out all time wasting like tv watching, time sinks like free newspapers on the train, and ban myself from any gaming before 11pm.
With one kid it felt like I hardly had any spare time for hacking or anything, and I was so envious of my previous childless me with all that spare time I had then. Now with two kids I am envious of all the spare time I had with just one kid!
by papac on 3/8/17, 6:28 AM
by fred_is_fred on 3/8/17, 2:55 AM
by ChicagoDave on 3/8/17, 3:40 PM
I have five kids (all teens now) and have managed to keep up with technology throughout their early years and to today.
There is all kind of parenting advice I could offer, but it all depends on how you personally wish to raise your kids. I'm old school. I think the more kids play on their own, by themselves, the more they read....the better they'll be. I'm highly aware of other parenting techniques, especially where there's some weird expectation that we devote our lives to our kids every moment of the day outside of work. I find that patently ridiculous.
When I've needed to carve out time for learning, I just tell the kids I have to learn something. They ask me what it is and I explain as much as I can. I ask them if it's okay that "this weekend" they focus on friends or read a book. I get complaints on occasion and if I need to bend I bend. More often than not, my kids respect my request. Even so, I still cook, clean, play board games, take them to movies, and have discussions with them.
But the underlying aspect (to me) is passion to learn. If you don't have a passion to learn new things _on your own_, I can't help you.
by pasta on 3/8/17, 11:48 AM
As a father I also think this is the most important, no matter what. If it means you will be an average programmer, so be it.
But I discovered that you can still keep up by keeping it simple. Because simple saves time.
For example I wanted to learn more about creating web apps. So I took an evening and checked out all kinds of Javascript frameworks like React, Angular, and so on. And I after looking at the examples I ended up with VueJs. Why? Because I could just download one Javascript file to get started. No need to learn all about thousands of package managers, about NodeJs and what not.
I'm not trying to start a war about which Javascript framework is best, or which other framework just works by downloading one file. But what I like to point out, is that there are sometimes options that just work without you having to learn a ton of other stuff.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/5whpqs/im_bill_gates_...
by bbarn on 3/8/17, 3:27 AM
All that said, 9pm to midnight was always plenty of time for me to keep up on anything involving a computer. For some, it might not be. The day light hours, and time before she'd go to bed, were all about her. If you run around, do homework with, cook dinner and play with your child all night long, it's much easier to get them to sleep through the night! I consider myself lucky, but many of my friends through bike racing, and other outdoor related activities are similarly active people, and their kids are exposed to active, high energy pursuits in the day time as well and - you guessed it - most of them sleep pretty normally.
Also, admittedly, the day I worry about my github commit graph is the day I think I need therapy. Life's more than contributing to code projects.
by xenadu02 on 3/8/17, 1:48 AM
Startup culture preaches move quickly, pivot when something doesn't work. I apply that to my development. In the past I might hammer on a bad design for two days until finally figuring out I was on the wrong path. I am much more focused now. I'd say I'm a more productive developer than I was without kids because I avoid a lot of dead ends and wasted time.
My tolerance for friction and pointless bullshit is also much lower. The main project is difficult to build and test due to lots of state? I create scripts to automate or I spin up a test project, investing an hour up front because I know it will pay off over time. In the past I wasted too much time doing things manually because it felt like extra work to automate it. There is a delicate balance here and it just takes experience to figure it out.
by jvanloov on 3/8/17, 8:25 AM
Subtracting time for household work, that leaves 1-2 hours each night for leisure. Weekends can give a bit more leisure time, but not always. Sometimes my girlfriend and I eat after kids-bedtime to have a chance to actually taste our food (or go out, with a babysitter staying with our kids), once a week I go to the local hackerspace, the rest is more or less for myself.
For me, I learned to ruthlessly prioritize in my list of things that I want to do, and I got good at structuring my projects in result-oriented blocks of work that can be done in one or a few time blocks.
I also don't watch TV; this went way down the priority list after the first kid was born.
by jaxn on 3/8/17, 3:23 AM
I could be a better father. I could be a better programmer. I'm doing a good job of both. It is a full life.
6 hours of focused work is more than most people get done in a day. You want to be a great dad and a great programmer? Cut out Hacker News ;)
edit: I guess we are listing ages. 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 7.
by carsongross on 3/8/17, 4:33 AM
#2: Carve out a bit of off limits time for efficient learning, say mondays 8-9AM. Guard it jealously and make yourself intensely look through the new stuff out there, picking a few things a month to deep dive on. Be picky, most of the new technology out there is shit.
#3: see #1
by losteverything on 3/8/17, 1:41 PM
I always told the people I supported, "You only get one chance to rear your child."
And now decades after first birth I can easily say "there is nothing _more_ important than than your children"
I'm not in tech any longer because of my actual ambivalence of technology. I was naturally good at it but hated the chase to keep up.
If you compare the outcome of effort in keeping up in tech to the effort in rearing children then it's a easy answer. The better outcome is always children.
by sonabinu on 3/8/17, 12:47 AM
I feel this is a super important question. I've published it on LinkedIn with my thoughts. Hopefully, you will get some feedback there as well! https://www.linkedin.com/post/edit/6245042931087007744 Good luck!
by Joky on 3/8/17, 2:52 AM
Also, some people have the ability to get into work and focus efficiently even for a 10 min slot, which can happen multiple time during the day.
by analog31 on 3/8/17, 5:46 AM
A huge matter of luck has been my kids not needing things like exceptional medical or behavioral care. That's just not predictable.
Having kids does sharpen your time management, and may cause you to set aside some activities that no longer matter. I think that the mental stimulation -- or perhaps sheer terror -- made me more creative and energetic, even if I was physically fatigued. In the weeks after my daughter was born, while she was asleep, I actually developed and launched a new product for my side business.
Don't rule out changing jobs. I've read that something like 50% of workers change jobs right after the birth of their first child. A repeated pattern I've seen, over and over, is that new parents suddenly express an interest in becoming managers.
by danielvf on 3/8/17, 3:17 AM
As mempko said, kids can go to bed at a structured time. Kids getting enough sleep is really good for them and really good for you. After work I spend about three hours with the whole family, including supper and housework. Then the kids go to bed, and I get an hour of learning coding in, then hang out with my wife for an hour. Usually I get about theee straight hours on a project somewhere in the weekend.
Newborns are something else though. It's prudent to plan on being a sleep deprived zombie for three months. If you are in the lucky 33% that escapes this, rejoice!
by throwaway243546 on 3/8/17, 2:53 AM
We have a 14 month old that wakes up 3 to 4 times every night. Even using strategies with my partner to take turns, it weighs down on us and sleep becomes the priority after the kid and work.
I have no idea how people with more than 1 kid have any time to do anything, unless you have access to babysitters, of course.
by royletron on 3/8/17, 10:45 AM
I don't think this is a question you should ask yourself, but you should talk to your employer about. I don't see any brick-layers practising new brick laying techniques in their spare time, or car mechanics expected to find out about new cars and engines at the weekend. Obviously you have interests, and you like to know about the latest news or craze but this should be a recreational activity (ten minutes here and there). If blogging, research and trying new technology benefits your work then it should be supported by your employer.
Incidentally I am a full-time senior engineer with two kids and many years experience. You shouldn't be expected to juggle like this.
by nstart on 3/8/17, 4:13 PM
Ultimately it comes down to being extremely hard on yourself. It is not a bed of roses. In fact just by being around to comment on HN I'm wasting time. Having a kid and still levelling up means becoming a machine which tbh is terribly unappealing. And it does suck from time to time. Dragging my ass out of bed early ( I still get 7 hours sleep by not watching any TV) so I can study before my son wakes up is crap. But if you want it, you gotta do it.
And that's what your coworkers probably don't have. It's one of those hurtful things to say, but for the most part it's true. They don't have the entire drive needed to keep learning. They aren't hungry enough for it.
I just want to clarify I don't advocate killing yourself over this. I don't advocate doing something you don't like. But I do guarantee however, there's time. To get there is an all or nothing road though. Screw TV. Screw games (I do about half to one hour per week max). Screw HN ideally unless you are here to check on actual important developments like security or _relevant_ programming language related updates. FB, twitter, YouTube, etc. Bye!
And that's tough really. So I don't fault anyone either. But I don't like hearing others trying to tell you "oh it can't be done". Can do.
by outericky on 3/8/17, 6:25 AM
The older you get the more structured your life gets. Startup cofounder, husband, dad of 2 (10 & 7 now...), Ironman, runner, endurance cyclist. Focus on the important things; you can't do everything so do what matters most.
1. Your kids will only be kids once. You will never get that time back, so figure out what's most important.
2. Get them involved. Young. There are opportunities for kids to learn. Teach them. Get them involved. My kids are startup kids. But their fun times include coming to the office evenings and tinkering with a raspberry pi or doing some kodable stuff
3. Prioritize. Things change. I used to be a gamer. And tinkerer. And... other things. Now, I work (SimpleLegal CTO. I'm a husband and father. And I race my bicycle (train 10-15 hrs per week). That's pretty much it. There is plenty of time in the day, and it's easy to waste.
by vikingcaffiene on 3/8/17, 6:35 AM
Having a kid doesn't mean you never have any time for personal enhancement like study or exercise. It just means that you have to be more structured and focused. It takes a lot of trial and error to find a good balance.
by czep on 3/8/17, 2:09 PM
But we have to ask why this attitude is endemic to tech and not to other fields. You don't see surgeons or investment bankers asking their peers in forums, "how do you skill up" after having kids! So why do we feel like in tech we must sacrifice everything else that makes us human just to keep our nose to the grindstone?
I wrote two blog posts that echo this dilemma. [1] "Don't call me a '5:01er'" where I attack the unfair portrayal of people with kids as being less committed to their jobs, and [2] "Why can't a CEO be a family man?" about how our entire civilization seems to have its priorities bass-ackwards.
For me the critical turning point in my perspective came one day as I gazed down at my son on his changing table. I looked at him lying there helpless and it made me think of how I said goodbye to my father, looking down as he lay in the casket. Then I realized that one day the tables would literally be turned as this very same helpless creature would be looking down at my lifeless body to say goodbye. And then I knew that the rest of my life was merely the prelude to that very moment. It taught me that I want to be the kind of man who my son will miss when I'm gone. I'm not going to get to that point by stressing out about my github contributions.
[1]: http://czep.net/15/dont-call-me-a-501er.html [2]: http://czep.net/15/ceo-family-man.html
by wobbleblob on 3/8/17, 8:21 AM
If your answer is "But [insert famous tech guru] does it", you'll find that [famous tech guru] has a spouse who takes care of all or most of the kid stuff.
by b_t_s on 3/8/17, 4:06 PM
(B) They hate their children and use coding/work as a way to avoid them(a lot of aspergers here too)
(C) Their day job can/does involve open source and/or writing blog posts.(consultants are big in this category)
Then there's the other 99% of us with very few green boxes who finish chores at 10somthing at night and pass out.
by skrebbel on 3/8/17, 7:49 AM
If you're able to code up a blog engine with one hand while holding your baby in the other, I envy you. I wish I could muster up the energy and discipline to do something like that. But to other readers: for many people this is not the way. I hope that by writing this comment I can provide some counterpressure to this usual HN moral of "work harderer, even hardererer, all the time, at the cost of everything" that these proud over-achieving-parent comments breathe.
It's perfectly OK not to code outside work time. It's perfectly fine to, once you're finally done with the intensive and tiring quality time you spent with your kids, to sit down, have a cup of tea, watch some Netflix and go to bed early.
This means that you must ensure you have a challenging job. Not learning on the job is not an option - you'll be out of work in 10 years, maybe sooner. So be critical, request transfers, and if your financial situation allows, care less about salary than about how much you can learn on the job. The downside of our market is that knowledge gets outdated fast. But the upside is that we programmers are in great demand. We get to make demands - not many people have that priviledge. Use it. You can't afford not to.
I'd say that this is good advice for most people - as you might guess I'm a violent opponent to this whole "you're not worth your salt as a coder if you don't do hobby-OSS every evening" meme. But it becomes a need if you can't or won't be Superdad or Supermom every day.
Think about yourself, think about your future. Consider letting off-time be off-time and getting yourself a better job :)
by bdcravens on 3/8/17, 1:26 AM
When I think of those I follow in similar situations, it seems they tend to eschew learning for learning's sake, and even those who were successful programmers learn to delegate. (Rob Walling comes to mind) So whether it's running a product, or learning new skills, I think it's a matter of avoiding shiny object syndrome.
by vkb on 3/8/17, 1:09 AM
If you work full-time and you want to go above and beyond, you're essentially working three days: work, before school + after school, and then your third day is learning or development.
Whatever that means for you in terms of reshuffling energy and other commitments will vary on your personality, energy level, etc, etc.
When you have a small child, it is extremely hard to multitask. So I wait until she is asleep. All after work time and weekends are for her.
Here is the way my schedule works: I pick her up from daycare, do dinner, playing, and then she goes to bed. I then take half an hour break, and delve into whatever I have going on, for about three hours.
I'm currently taking a Java class, writing technical blogs, and working out some Python. So I'll usually do an hour of reading/Java homework, then start a blog post, then finish off with whatever else I was working on.
Over the past three weeks, I developed this talk on big data[3]. That was probably the hardest because I needed a lot of time to write the code, test the code and concentrate, and all of my energy was just sapped.
All of this is to say that you can do it. For me personally it takes a lot of reshuffling and work and giving up things, but that's how kids work.
[1]http://blog.vickiboykis.com/2015/09/we-are-not-getting-the-f... [2]http://blog.vickiboykis.com/2012/07/sheryl-anne-marie-and-ma... [3]https://veekaybee.github.io/data-lake-talk/#/
by mlave on 3/8/17, 2:29 PM
I started going into autopilot at work and stopped inovating and spent more and more time organising things and less time coding.
I realised that if I didn't change I would end up de-skilling myself and end up in Management or worse.
Don't get me wrong about Management, I'm sure it's deeply rewarding if it's your calling but for me it felt a bit soleless so I had to do something.
I now have a nice balance of family time as well as spend at least 5 hours a day coding professionally and around 5 hours a week hacking on personal or open source endeavours
So what changed?
I made things uncomfortable for myself.
I started running a few times a week - suprisingly, this eats into more of my precious time but seems to make me less mentally tired, less grumpy with the kids and more able to concentrate when coding.
I made sure I did at least 30 minutes of personal coding an evening to skill up - starting with katas then moving onto personaly projects, open source contributions or groking new tech. Once that is done I'm free to relax with my partner, eat, watch tv, drink wine, etc
I quit my permanent Senior Development role and started contracting, this resulted in less meetings and more pure coding tasks.
I always take the opportunities that allow me to learn new things.
During the day I don't procrastinate (browsing the web, e.g. hacker news is limited for me) - I work hard on my programming tasks but not silly hard, e.g. I have regular breaks, lunch, etc.
by siner on 3/8/17, 8:40 AM
I just stopped bothering what to learn or accumulate green boxes. The only time github graph looked like a jungle was when I was hired to work on a sponsored open source project.
I tend to read on the train ride if not completely wasted. Coding is kind of not fun while commuting. Topics differ however.
In the evenings I just do whatever I like to do after chores. Sometimes it's coding, sometimes just playing games, mostly screwing around the internets or reading non profession books.
Demand for computer science is not (yet) declining, quite the contrary. So my need for learning does not come from competition.
The most quality time to learn something new is an hour here an hour there at work. I try to be efficient to generate the desired output so I can get a bit of slack to get my head into something new coding wise. Call me unethical, but it seems to work out for me and clients. There is only one life to live.
by rodolphoarruda on 3/8/17, 12:25 PM
by zunzun on 3/8/17, 12:27 AM
by timewarrior on 3/8/17, 7:29 AM
Life changed a lot after the baby was born. I took time off for almost two months and now am getting into a rhythm where I can spend 7-8 hours in office everyday.
Coming to the original topic - the way I have solved skill up is by having a day job which helps me acquire skills that I want to acquire. I would never do a job where I am not learning what I want to learn. I have left multi million dollars in equity on table at jobs where I was not learning (LinkedIn, Dropbox). Moved to management roles and back to individual contributor a few times, as soon as I had acquired the skills I wanted to acquire.
Based on this strategy I have acquired following skills - Backend, Infrastructure, DevOps, Frontend web, Frontend iOS, Data mining research, Product, UX, BizDev, Sales. Current plan is Analytics and Machine learning.
Given that now I am able to do a full time day job - I am able to skill up as a part of it.
by krosaen on 3/8/17, 4:05 PM
I wrote about my experience taking time off for a 'learning sabbatical' here:
http://karlrosaen.com/learning-sabbatical/
and now have a job where I make quite a bit less than my last job but have a lot of freedom to learn on the job (e.g spend several hours a week working through material that will make me more valuable on the job, learning stuff I'm really excited about in the meantime).
I have a family, and can probably squeeze out maybe 3-4 hours a week tops outside of work / family stuff, and usually don't feel like it because it's important to have downtime. Having a way to learn during the day is great and I think a sustainable solution for family minded folks.
by ceocoder on 3/8/17, 4:35 PM
7.30-11 is the time where I get most of my learning done - code reviews, feedback to design docs, reading articles on HN, watching lectures. Essentially what I'm saying is - if you can set and maintain a schedule for your child, it will help you find time for your self. Hope this helps.
by watwut on 3/8/17, 7:05 AM
I guess the trick is not to fall down into a trap of thinking that kids needs you super active all the time. They don't, they are fully competent to play without you, for short times at first only and they will break your focus every few minutes or so. Give them your attention, but simply dont give up on reading/writing/etc and you will find the balance.
by yotamoron on 3/8/17, 10:36 AM
My point? your life is full of unbelievable pile of unimportant things (and by 'unimportant' I don't mean important in some objective, cosmic way, but important by the core values YOU have that can only present themselves when under pressure). Having kids (or, in a more general way, having much much less free time) will force you to become much better in separating the wheat from the chaff - which is a great thing.
by juanger on 3/8/17, 3:55 AM
It is difficult to find a balance as responsibilities don't scale linearly, combination of different situations are more complex than the sum of the parts. Just think about this: When you get out of the office, what do you have to do? I'm not referring to what you want to do but to the things that you are "forced" to do. Probably nothing or very little (gym, laundry, etc).
When you have a family, you have to consider lots of unknowns when returning home: problems, chores, play time, illness, vacations, homework, parties, injuries, different hobbies per family member, sibling rivalry, etc. You have to consider everyone in the family and all the combinations so, of course you have way less spare time to enjoy for yourself.
That being said, here are some ideas:
1) There are lots of things to learn other than what can be shared in your Github account graph. Having kids forces you to diversify and that is good.
2) Kids are a great opportunity to learn mentorship. They need to learn everything: how to talk, walk, ride a bicycle, eat, manage their time, etc. Learning how to distill your knowledge and propagate it is a really good skill for a programmer.
3) All the good programmers that keep up and share things: It is easy to see 20 great programmers sharing their projects in twitter and think that they a super-human, but remember that for some of them, that is their job and that it is easy to feel you don't do much when comparing yourself to a collective that is delivering every day something awesome.
4) There are things you never got to learn/do but with kids you can have the opportunity (or be forced :)) to. In my case: camping and surfing
The ultimate trick is to stay in a mental state that allows you to do those things, it is easy to sometimes feel overwhelmed with so many things going on that depend on you.
by ladytron on 3/8/17, 1:59 AM
I have no hobbies. I don't go to networking/startup events. I don't watch TV,Netflix, etc and I don't have cable. Rarely go on vacation, unless a family obligation to visit grandma.
Tactics: Office with 24/7 access outside house (worth the rent) Coffee shop open at 6 am/closes at 1 am with wi-fi.
Basically I work every morning at coffee shop before kids get up. Partner works late after kids go to bed at 8 pm. We work at the office lab every weekend, taking turns, with a sitter, or we just bring kids to office with coloring books, games etc.
Doing this you can work about 35 - 50 hours a week, but obviously it's not for everyone!
by jakobegger on 3/8/17, 8:28 AM
But in general having kids takes a lot of time. So I can't do all the things that I used to do before. I go out a lot less, I watch barely any TV anymore, and I rarely code anymore at night (too tired most days), and I read fewer books.
However, I'm still productive. Little projects that I used work on for a few weekends take months now. I just spend a few hours here and there. But once the project is done, it's done, and it doesn't matter how long it took.
by jug on 3/8/17, 12:12 PM
The past me would have messed around playing with Linux distros trying to find what's most cool and best for me, totally wasting a lot of time in the process, perhaps kept building websites using more obnoxious workflows because I never saw a need to change.
Now I'm using a combo of gohugo and surge.sh to build my site, on Debian Stable Xfce. No distractions and stuff just works, man, with a minimum of fuss. Xfce on SSD is just laughably fast and slick. I think I audibly laughed. It's not just for low spec PC's! Anyway, then came the realization I could evolve my new site with these new tools to build a better face to the web for my career. I'm blogging in convenient, fast near-prose Markdown and I type one damn command to puzzle everything together and deploy. Now I realize these new insights will probably be good for me as a professional too, not just sparing time at home. It's not only at home time is considered valuable...
It's especially good to get this thinking into the "core" of yourself, you know. That it's automatically part of everything you do. It's honestly too late I've had that happen but kids probably helped.
by qaq on 3/8/17, 1:40 PM
by daxfohl on 3/8/17, 2:21 PM
by Jean-Philipe on 3/9/17, 12:41 AM
Another way for you to keep learning might be to found your own company - just be careful to focus and not to neglect your family. With my first company, I was lacking focus and put too much unnecessary work into the company, to the cost of my family. Also, my co-founders didn't have kids.
The second time I founded a company with another dad, who understands flexible schedules. We're now a few moms and dads in the team. Sometimes I would go home early, be with my daughters, and catch up with work later. I feel I'm a lot more focussed than before having kids, and I definitely get a lot more done, in less time! It doesn't even compare. I don't have a choice anyways. My learning mostly happens on the job. When we get a new project, we sometimes decide to try a new technology - if it seems to add a benefit or save us time in the long term.
Ah yeah and of course, communicating with your partner is key if you want to shave off some time here and there!
by whynotmaybe on 3/9/17, 4:13 AM
Why only a few times per month ? Because most of the time my brain's too tired to function properly and it's wiser to empty it with netflix than getting pissed off on your family.
It's true that there aren't many green boxes on my github, but it's not my main income, it's on the side. I do it for fun !
Advice for anyone willing to skill up with kids : - discuss this with your SO. Your SO can understand this and accommodate some time for you. (Some time) - discuss this with your kids when they're old enough to understand. - work by small increment
You cover both extreme of the argument with "I argued many good programmers have family with kids and still manage to keep up. They brushed me off saying it's just not possible or they don't look after their kids.", .
Some are super humans and can do everything, some think that they must forget who they are because of their kids and put their lives in PAUSE for 20yrs. ALL the others try to balance their life.
You don't stop training because you have kids, you don't stop watching movies because you have kids, you don't stop going out because you have kids. They become an important part of your life, just a part, not your whole life.
by Anil-Shrestha on 3/8/17, 5:17 AM
by noer on 3/8/17, 5:38 PM
I usually work on things after my son goes to bed and spend anywhere between 2-4 hours depending on the day. My wife takes him to a class on Saturday mornings and is gone for about 2 hours so I use that time. My work ethic definitely ebbs and flows, and I definitely wish I could do more, but I also have a rule for myself to not have a laptop out when he's awake/home.
My son was born 9 weeks early and had to spend a fair amount of time in the hospital after he was born. During the time my son was in the hospital, I took on a freelance project that required a fair amount of front end work and frankly I was in over my head. After the first week of this project, my son came home and I was trying to juggle a newborn, a full time job and a pretty significant freelance project that I wasn't totally qualified to do. I got fired from my freelance project after about two months when it became clear that I didn't have the time or skills to do the job. Looking back, I have no idea how I did it.
by tomrod on 3/8/17, 11:54 AM
I put myself through grad school in economics (5 years), learned C/Fortran/Python, learned data science, all with two young kids. Ungodly hours and sleep deprivation were the norm for months at a time. Prioritization of that precious little free time became so important. Milestones, project plans, etc. Recreation consisted of kite flying after exams for the semester were complete, and the student-apartment barbecues on Sundays.
How do I keep learning? I keep Netflix off as much as possible, code on projects (sexy or not) instead of firing up steam, and focus on good enough instead of perfection. In other words, tradeoffs.
Do I have everything down? No, I have a list of things to learn or understand better as long as my arm. But I'm working towards it, and my kids (now tweeners with a toddler brother) work with me occasionally too. Just last week we worked together on an invention convention with me as a SME. I learned about circuitry, my kids built an awesome LED light/clock/bookmark. One wants to be a video game designer when they grow up, one wants to be a musician and deejay like Tiesto, and I'm tickled that I get to share the things I learn with them.
Tech and coding really are and can be a family affair. It's not only a good source of income, but for kids the idea that they can fundamentally change the world, push boundaries and improve life for people builds on their already optimistic imaginations and, frankly, is really cool to see.
by RyanBlk on 3/10/17, 3:18 PM
Once you have children, your time management skills go through the roof. I should start off saying that I always put family time first and my hobbies second. The key is to have a solid routine that you follow. We try to get my son into bed by 8ish. I then will watch TV with the wife until around 9. From 9-midnight is my free time. Sometimes I watch another show with the wife, sometimes I am tired and go to sleep, but most of the time I am on the computer. I also have time during his nap on Saturday and Sunday. I will probably lose these 4 hours once my daughter is born.
I used to excessively play video games during this time before my son was born. Now I have been working on my roommate matching website https://www.roommatefilter.com . My priorities changed once my wife became pregnant. I wanted the best life possible for them and started getting productive with my time.
You quickly find out what's most important to you once you only have a few hours of free time a night. Most people have at least an hour a day to better themselves, but choose to engage in more enjoyable activities.
I tell people that don't have kids, having children will be both the most rewarding and hardest thing you will do.
by gbog on 3/8/17, 9:52 AM
The recipe?
- A good stable programming job with zero travels and few overtime.
- A wife that understand that going to bars with friends is necessary for personal balance. She does the same.
- Zero "kid week-end activities", week-end is not filled with car trips to the piano or aikido lesson, it is filled with random activities with kids like gardening, fixing the house, lego, cartoons (only Miyazaki), books.
- We live in China so we have plenty of help, someone drives the kids to school, someone else cooks and take care of the youngest, yet another person do the house cleaning.
- I never forced myself into some activities I did not enjoy with my kids. I try and find cartoons and books that them and I can enjoy (thus the Miyazaki restiction). You do not owe anything to your kids. Having a good life balance, therefore being a happy parent, is the best gift you can give them.
Obviously this works well for me because I like kids in the beginning, I'm naturally attracted. Some could have to force themselves a bit more, but nobody should ever self-sacrifice to their kids: this is a poisoned gift to them, they will know, and have this terrible burden to carry thorugh their life, and might not pardon you.
by phereford on 3/8/17, 12:56 PM
In order to "stay relevant", I have found this to work for me: 1) During my passive commutes (every morning and afternoon), I have a solid 30 minutes of either listening to a podcast if I don't get a seat or toying around with new languages/frameworks otherwise. 2) Convince your current company that it is in their best interest to bake learning into your current job.
Obviously (2) can be quite difficult, but it starts a conversation you want to have anyway about making sure the entire team stays relevant and fresh. Most people always point to Google's innovation time as a good measure of how this should be done.
Having children has absolutely changed my priorities around and put an increasing value on my time. For me, I would much rather forgo learning the new JS flavor of the week in favor of spending as much time as possible with my growing children.
by koliber on 3/8/17, 8:52 AM
I learn at work. Not always, but a little bit every day. It is rarely a new library or language. Often, it's a little insight into how to name functions better, or a subtle shift in my philosophy of how code should be organized. It compounds heavily over time, and makes me the experienced developer I am today.
To answer your question, some people are superhuman. Some are just better at marketing and aggrandizing their ability to split time. Some have kids but don't spend time with them.
Try to find a good balance that satisfies you. Be cognizant of your time management, energy levels, and expectations. Consider how your diet, exercise, and sleep affect your day. If you have resources, consider outsourcing some work like house chores, laundry, shopping, and cooking to free up some time. Most importantly, make sure you realize that it's OK not to be like everyone else.
As a side note, my public GitHub account graph is a bad way to judge my professional activity. I push code multiple times a day to GitHub repos, but only have 7 public contributions in the last year. A huge majority of my work is in private repos.
by WBrentWilliams on 3/8/17, 12:34 PM
I set a goal and found time. I found 30 minutes every morning. I make it a point to have slack time (hence, answering this post and reading Hacker News...), but I target about 90 minutes a week on whatever single project I choose for the week.
by orless on 3/8/17, 9:47 AM
I still do a lot of open-source and side projects. These are my green boxes:
I don't stay late in the office, we're home around 6pm. We have an au-pair girl who helps with children (takes them to school/kindergarten and picks them up). I mostly do 1-2 hours after 9pm (after I bring children to bed) a couple of times a week and maybe a few of hours on the weekend. I guess that'd amount to around 6-10 hours a week altogether. I don't always get enough sleep. Sometimes when working on something very exciting I stay till very late (like 2am) and regret it the next day. I go to 3-4 hackathons a year, something I arrange with my wife well ahead of time. She knows it's important for me and is very supportive.
But to be honest I don't I do my OS or side projects for "skilling up", I do them as a hobby, because I like it. "Skilling up" happens primarily at work - my employer invests around 10% of the worktime in "skilling up", I have around 15-20 days of courses/workshops a year.
by laughfactory on 3/8/17, 3:42 PM
by AznHisoka on 3/8/17, 12:22 AM
they also take lots of naps in the afternoon which equals down time for you.
so as a rule, when they sleep you have some free time.
by zwischenzug on 3/8/17, 9:49 AM
About 5 years ago I read 'Getting Things Done' and (despite my misgivings) it literally changed my life.
Since then I've:
- set up a JIRA to track ALL the things I work on
- written a book https://www.amazon.com/Docker-Practice-Ian-Miell/dp/16172927... (and am currently writing a second edition)
- started a blog https://zwischenzugs.wordpress.com/
- changed jobs
- become a speaker https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ian+miell
- started an open source project that helps me automation my spare time tech work: http://ianmiell.github.io/shutit/
And now I feel I've got MORE time than I had before I read it, and better time with kids etc..
The takeaway from this is that if you get serious about managing your time the benefits can be awesome.
Although when your kids are very young (we had two demanding ones under 2) don't be too hard on yourself - it's really hard!
by BayAreaSmayArea on 3/8/17, 9:12 PM
I started consulting, hustling, and expanding my knowledge and skillset as rapidly as I could. I started a consultancy on the side and nearly doubled my income over the course of a few months. Between that and my boy not being a very good sleeper I probably ran on an average of 4.5 hours rest a night for between 3-4 years (with once a week crashes of a long night of sleep on Fridays and Saturday afternoon nap).
It was tough, damn tough, but I made sure to spend quality time with him every night and most mornings, gave him nearly every bath during the first 2 years of his life, and got up with him every time he needed me in the night from midnight to 7am as that was my shift so the wife could sleep. During the same time I achieved an extremely high proficiency with ruby and later rails, learned to sell myself, came on as first engineer at a startup and dug deep into Elixir right around the time it hit 1.0, eventually launching a product written in it and learning a ridiculous amount about the BEAM in the process.
Theres less time to fart around with video games, and I don't have much in the way of hobbies, but little fulfillment was going to come from those areas anyway.
Its doable, and I'm alive and sane on the other side with a load of accomplishments to point to, a great relationship with my wife/son and reasonable assurance that my child(ren) will have everything they need to be successful.
by shoefly on 3/8/17, 3:20 PM
by smdz on 3/8/17, 10:46 AM
Once you have a kid - time shrinks. If you thought 24 hours a day was less before having a kid - just imagine. However you also start focusing on being efficient with your time. At least that's what happened to me. You can't work 100 hours a week consistently after a certain age (usually after 30). I don't thrive to work 100+ hours a week, but I am very careful at where/how I spend my 50+ hours a week.
by rmz on 3/8/17, 7:13 PM
by andymoe on 3/8/17, 12:04 PM
Thankfully babies need a lot of sleep and after six months their stomachs get bigger and they start eating a bit of solid food and will sleep through the night if you are lucky.
Night owls can still have 9-midnight to yourself if you want... I did this for two years with my first child while trying to get a start-up going and still use that time once in a while now.
But there is a better way. Look at your employer or company culture. It turns out the standard hero culture in tech of long hours on your own is not a very effective use of anyone's time. Look for a culture that values learning, collaboration and teaching. If you actually work 8 effective hours a day maintaining a sustainable pace you can get amazing things accomplished.
Techniques like pair programming, BDD, trunk based development with less or no time wasting code reviews can help you transfer knowledge, let teams move faster with higher quality while maintaining a good pace. Try those things instead of sleeping less.
by nrjames on 3/8/17, 1:31 PM
Eventually, I combined the two and ended up creating several apps for my kids. One was an OS X app that allowed them to bang on the keyboard without damaging my files, etc. Each letter corresponded with an animal. A full screen pic of the animal would appear and the sound would play. It was called Toddler Typer. While it's no longer on the App Store, my kids, now 6 and 4, both still like to play with it. The second was an iPad app called Toddler Taxonomist (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/toddler-taxonomist/id6423870...) that is still available for free (though I need to rewrite it in Swift or something). My older daughter sat on my lap and helped me make it.
Now, I have a full time job, hold a position as a Fellow, work on personal projects when I have time, and spend good time with my kids, when I can. The best advice I have for you is to try to avoid getting frustrated during those first few years and to pivot to parenthood as a learning process. Combine interests where you can, and don't lose sight of the fact that your kids will be intensely interested in the activities you do on the computer. When they're old enough, show/teach them what you're doing!
by mirekrusin on 3/8/17, 8:55 AM
Can't think of other options. Just one kid can easily fill up 24h of a day without a problem, as a bonus leaving you with 45 minutes of sleep only - and the kid will be just fine, i.e. with enough energy to do it to you again, no problem.
by noonespecial on 3/8/17, 3:26 AM
by mmjaa on 3/8/17, 11:40 AM
But the key thing is that when I'm with my kids, I'm with them and not focusing on other things. That seems to be the most important thing: quality time with the kids, even if its a small amount of time, makes all the difference in the world.
I also make sure to spend time building things with them - airplanes, marble-runs, whatever. It helps when I'm not around, because they can improve things and report back when we next have quality time together - and that has been really beneficial on those weeks when I've not gotten home in time to spend at least a few minutes with them each day .. we have a project in some kind of state, and while we're not able to spend time together, they improve on that project. Having these kinds of things happening has been quite important to us having, in my opinion, a great relationship.
by verulito on 3/8/17, 11:15 PM
9am-10am: wake up 10am - 6pm: work (yup, 40 hours) 6pm - 8pm: shop, cook, feed, put kids to sleep 8pm - 9pm: discipline my kids for not sleeping 9pm - 1am: my time
weekends: 8am - 9am: wife lets me sleep 9am - 8pm: I entertain kids
So I got a few hours a day there. Multitasking is almost impossible because if you don't sink their energy then they create more work for you.
What consumes my free time: - Running errands - Exercise (~1hr/day) - Preparing meals (very basic) - Cleaning
I also have more doctor appointments than most and such, hopefully temporary. My wife has some issues that makes it hard for her to parent so I work more than others.
Here's how I observe others doing it: - Cut back on sleep - Asian mom lives with them - Hire babysitters - Really supportive spouse. ie they don't accomplish - Delegate kids to other activities or let them entertain themselves at home - Don't exercise. Eat out. Etc. - Have kids without issues
by xtrimsky1234 on 3/9/17, 2:42 AM
But I definitely don't have time to do one commit a day :(.
Back in college or highschool, I used to pull a full weekend worth of programming, meaning starting saturday at 8am, finishing sunday at 10pm. I was able to build very cool projects in just a weekend. Now if I estimate maybe the 1 hour I have per week, the same project just takes me months...
I still do cool projects, VR video games, cool websites. It's just taking a lot of time. This project for example took me 4 years (lol): http://traveler208.com/
But you know what, looking back at what I have of my life, I cherish much more the time I spent with the family at the lake, or the time I spent with my wife. The time where I programmed a platform that used only free servers all over the internet to combine a 7TB bandwidth in a month for a P2P service was cool, but it's not as good.
by simion314 on 3/8/17, 8:37 AM
by equalarrow on 3/8/17, 4:04 PM
I have 2 kids - 5 & 3. It's the best and hardest all wrapped in a unpredictive, non-linted experience. On top of that, being in tech, I feel, puts you at a little more disadvantage.
Maybe because we live in SF where it feels like most software gigs want to operate at Uber speed.
I have a medium sized company job now, but have been through contracting and 3 startups since my oldest was born. I was definitely pushed many times to making the decision of company first and I've had to do what I've had to do to keep the money coming in.
Luckily my wife has her own biz and could take time off for the kids, but we've both talked about how this has put us in the traditional roles and how we wanted it to be different.
I would never take having kids back vs. a more accomplished software career (I switch between mgr and sr. engr roles anyway). Kids have put this point of my life into perspective more than anything.
If I want to do a side proj (I've done a few over the last few years), then I double down on discipline. I'm up at 4 every day, put in a solid 2 hours and then stop. Kids and family are next, then day job. I come home, usually around dinner time, give kids bath, stories and bed time.
It is definitely clockwork and treadmill feeling at times, but it's how I've made it work. In those 2 morning hours I code and keep updated on latest. Luckily I have quite a bit of exp so most things I already understand and it becomes more about translation into other languages / frameworks.
In closing I would say this: we have all been our children. I reflect back on my life remembering what made me excited and happy and try to facilitate they for my kids and be present with them. When they are asleep, then I have me time.
by pryelluw on 3/8/17, 10:40 AM
Stop believing the stupid shit other people say. Do what works for you and to hell with the rest.
by supergetting on 3/8/17, 5:54 AM
by kps1ny on 3/8/17, 3:11 PM
For example, perhaps there's a project related to a tool that helps kids learn to code. Contribute to it, and then have them use that tool and see how your work made it better. Maybe your contribution was a result of their idea for improving the product when they found it wanting.
If your kids are not yet old enough to speak or code, you can still work on projects that they might use sooner rather than later.
It's always a matter or priorities in any case. Doing away with TV is one way to gain a lot of time that will let you enjoy both kids and coding.
-Ken (father of 8yo and 11yo daughters who enjoy World of Warcraft and coding :-)
by NDizzle on 3/8/17, 4:53 PM
Find a good school system that is nearby. I have 10 years worth of schooling 3 blocks away. (pre-k through 8th grade)
Work from home. If you get rid of your commute you open up a lot of possibilities.
Have patience. Meditate and stretch often.
And finally - avoid javascript! You can't keep up with javascript.
by logfromblammo on 3/8/17, 3:51 PM
It also gives you the perspective to realize that chasing after business fads--especially startup culture business fads--is not "skilling up". It's just spinning a hamster wheel fast enough to grab the wire and do a 360.
The greatest skill, one that you learn right away, is how to clean up other people's isht when they are incapable of doing so. The next skill is being able to figure out what action you can take to most efficiently stop hysterical, incoherent whining and crying and turn it into blessed silence. And the best skill is learning how to value your own time--particularly the amount of it you can spend sleeping.
In general, you stop "skilling up" for the benefit of current or potential employers, and learn for the benefit of your own family.
by dep_b on 3/8/17, 3:14 PM
However I do learn on the job and I do keep a list of tabs open to read while compiling/uploading/drinking a coffee/to be honest just slacking off. So when I see a new problem I do not only have a set of tools that I already used and know but I also have a bunch of potential tools I could use.
I never used Mongo or any non-relational DB yet. But I'm ready to use it as soon as I see that one of the problems I'm solving requires one of the many benefits these kind of databases have. I don't need a pet project for that.
For example I tried F# for a small Windows service with a WebSocket for a customer because I knew it would be a very good pick for an application that mainly manages data flows.
by commenttolearn on 3/10/17, 6:54 PM
Be smart with the learning activities you choose. Side projects? probably not the best option since they require a lot of your time. Books, podcasts, video courses? That sounds more feasible since they are things you can squeeze in at any moment of the day.
Also keep in mind that learning is about quality and not quantity. It does not matter that you spend 5 hours coding on a side project if you are solving the same problem over and over.
Lastly, make sure you have a learning activities list ready so that you always have something to start working on and don't have to waste your time thinking about what's next.
by ropman76 on 3/8/17, 2:23 PM
by sriku on 3/9/17, 2:14 AM
Good question. What I'm reading in your question that many replies are missing out on is that your question is less about the actual responsibilities, which I see you happy to take up. It is about what to do with your mind which, now when not at work, can only think about your kids. Also there is this feeling that you should put your kids first and above yourself.
If that is the case, focusing inward helps. If you're at a place or time where your kids are not a matter - they might be safe and sound asleep, you may be on a work trip, you may be up a bit early on a day, whatever; at that time, you can tell yourself that it is OK to focus on your expansion.
I also found the time constraint changing what leveling up means to me - instead of picking up that new framework or tool, going deeper into whatever I want to.
by 01000001 on 3/8/17, 10:32 AM
I still spend a lot of time with my child, and have a great balance. Anything is possible, if you're smart enough to arrange things properly.
Not super human, but I do spend about 8 hours working, and about 6 hours doing non-work, but I intersperse it with taking breaks to play with my kid or to sit and eat breakfast.
You will find it hard in the beginning, when you're not getting much sleep, but it does get easier, and I imagine it's just going to get easier.
I had people tell me my life would be hell. They were wrong. Just because they mismanaged it and lost their passion, doesn't mean you have to.
Good luck!
by gdubs on 3/8/17, 3:00 PM
You will probably have the realization post-kids that you had obscene amounts of spare time in your youth.
But it's ok because having kids can really focus you. And it's amazing what your mind is capable of when you're focused.
Time box distractions and be clear with yourself what your goals are. Steady progress towards them can be really effective. Even 30 minutes a day of total focus towards a larger goal will over time pay dividends.
But, maybe most importantly: sleep. You're likely to get sleep deprived, and learning anything requires sleep and lots of it. There's always tomorrow.
If you're asking because you're expecting, congrats!
by wojt_eu on 3/8/17, 8:24 AM
Becoming a parent did not prevent me from doing extra work but rather made me re-evaluate my priorities. I want to give a good example to my 7-years old son with some balance in life with time for playing, sports, slow family dinners.
Fortunately web development allows me to accumulate savings for inevitable pause between jobs be it for re-training when my Rails expertise becomes obsolete, fun projects, sabbatical or founding a startup.
by saddington on 3/10/17, 7:21 PM
I do indie app development work (for myself) and then work with a few other guys to build an enterprise SaaS startup (just like everyone else... right...?).
In addition, I've been blogging every single day for 16 years (http://john.do) and I just added a daily vlog (http://john.show) where I talk about a few of these things...
But, I'm also married for 12 years and have 2 girls (ages 10 and 6). It's insanity trying to do all of these things... but, I manage... and here's how:
1. I've created a pretty strict boundary-line for when I work and when I don't. My wife and I agree on this boundary line and then... 2. I fucking work my ass off to get as much shit as I can done. 3. I forgive myself for not accomplishing everything I want to get done, and then, I get up the next day and try to do better. 4. I get support from partners and my friends. Building shit on the internet is tiring and can quickly become very lonely. Without help I lose, 100% of the time. 5. I take care of my body and mind and spirit through intentional self-care. I work out 7 days out of 7 a week. I have to or, I literally die.
By the way, it took years for me to figure all of this out, so, me dropping this might seem self-righteous and stuff, but I'm not trying to be like that.
I experimented my way through all of this and it took forever to find a pace and a rhythm that made sense for me and my family. It's hard as hell and every day I feel like I'm falling farther behind... but the reality is that most of that is in my head and the reality is that i'm moving faster and smarter than I ever have been.
I just, like everyone else, struggle to see the forest through the individual trees.
ping me if you want to chat more. i'm down for it: http://twitter.com/8bit
by marmot777 on 3/8/17, 7:41 AM
So if you are now in the first year then I'd say don't let extreme sleep deprivation be the final word on how your life is going to be later.
I think the first year can be an extreme experience right up there with mountain climbing or other things I've done that have been intense, except there's no let-up and you can't take breaks when you want. The first year shows you who you are. Sometimes you have to keep going with no sleep and the stomach flu. Period.
by meheleventyone on 3/8/17, 1:32 PM
I've mostly only pursued hobby projects outside of work when I've not been in work. Nap times on paternity leave with my first for example. Or more recently getting laid off and using my gardening leave as an extended paternity leave with the second. Otherwise that itch is usually beaten out by the working week.
Personally I experience a lot of value in having a broader range of interests and knowledge.
Young kids will definitely suck time and energy from you. Anything you do outside of home life will suffer. I can't really fathom how women in less equitable relationships cope with less help from their partners.
by atollstat on 3/10/17, 3:53 PM
But you just have to move that stone, an inch every day despite everything else going on. Sounds like such a cliche, but it works if you just keep at it.
by codingdave on 3/8/17, 11:48 AM
I do think it is possible to keep up on skills while raising kids. But I'm not sure that you'll be happy with the decision to do so when you are 50, the kids are grown, and you find that your skills are getting outdated anyway, your career is winding down anyway, and you have 20 years of memories of sitting at a desk while your kids do things without you.
Make your own choices, but most old people will recommend you let the career slide a bit, and spend time with family.
by 3chelon on 3/8/17, 12:31 PM
But on the upside, time flies once you have kids and before you know it they're teenagers and barely speak to you anymore ;) Then you suddenly find yourself with all this spare time again. On the downside, in the intervening years you've developed a serious Netflix habit that's proving tricky to kick...
by kbouck on 3/8/17, 7:38 AM
It is true that your work/hobby time will become more limited, so you must carefully prioritize how you spend what time you do have.
Embrace the challenge of finding balance between family and work. You will probably find that having good work-life balance has a positive impact on your work productivity and overall happiness.
by up_and_up on 3/8/17, 3:28 PM
Fuck that noise.
Hands-down the best programmers I have worked with have had multiple kids. I am talking about darth vader level chops, the gurus on the team. They take a problem or technology and understand it at its deepest level.
Things I notice that they would do:
1. Always have one new major idea/pattern/framework they were focused on learning. They would focus on it and learn it well.
2. Present ideas or attend meetups once a month. Going once a month is not a huge commitment.
3. Have a small side project, maybe something to test out the idea/concept/technology from #1
I myself have 3 kids and this pattern has worked well for me also ;)
by kogus on 3/8/17, 4:13 PM
Firstly, the available time is going to decrease. There is just no way around that, and yes that is painful. Hopefully the enjoyment from the kids is worth it, but it's a real trade-off for sure.
Secondly, the problem can be mitigated by having a strong routine and clear times that are "yours" for developing. (This is true for any hobby, of course. The hobby in this case is developing).
For me, the kids get in bed by 8, and from 8-10 is time for me and the wife, and from 10-12 is codin' time. Early morings before the kids wake up would be a better fit for some people.
TLDR; Don't forget yourself when setting priorities.
by fsloth on 3/8/17, 7:46 AM
It's about balancing what the kids need and what the parents need to sustain mental health. Kids will happily take all the attention they get but will grow fine of not all time is spent on them.
No, there is not as much time. But when I didn't have kids I wasted that time anyway trying to find the perfect vim colorscheme and whatnot non-value adding procrastrinatory foibles.
by ilovetux on 3/8/17, 7:18 AM
Do everything you can to keep as close to 100% of your time focused on your main role (automate and/or delegate all secondary tasks). Remember every distraction costs maybe 10 minutes to get back "in the zone".
It's hard but definitely possible, have heart I have 3 kids under 5 and I think I'm doing pretty good. One last piece of advice, financial stress sucks (doubly so with children) so try to have some savings for when unexpected expenses come up as these sorts of circumstances can affect your performance directly.
by jdauriemma on 3/8/17, 4:45 PM
by pknerd on 3/8/17, 10:32 AM
I only write blog. To answer your original question, kids are great stress reliever. I work from home and often get irritated by their unwanted shouting and screaming but then I don't work all the time. I do give them time, eat with them and play with them. For blogging/side projects etc it does not take much time, specially if you are organizing things around you.
by Debugreality on 3/8/17, 2:25 AM
Kids do require a lot of energy/time but it is often shared with other family/friends who are parents so it helps to have a good network.
Get resourceful in finding time like early in the morning or on the train.
Don't be afraid to use your "working" hours, good companies understand the value of skills development so your learning is really a win win for them and you assuming you are planning to stay there in the immediate future.
by ambroselittle on 3/10/17, 7:16 PM
It's not complicated, but it's also not black/white. You may do less, but that doesn't mean none.
by mti27 on 3/8/17, 4:55 PM
by YCode on 3/8/17, 4:54 PM
Beyond that it's the two of us playing and very little computer time.
You can still ponder the problems and consider solutions in between reading books and playing cars. Sometimes it's a more effective method than staring at the screen.
But don't expect to get much of anything done at first. That's okay.
You can always catch up on trends, but those first parenting experiences are a once in a lifetime opportunity and the window of time when you are a superhero to your child is fleeting.
by csixty4 on 3/8/17, 1:27 PM
Usually it's after everybody goes to bed, which I known is a bargain with the devil because I can't remember the last time I was allowed to sleep in on a weekend & catch up on sleep.
The other thing that helps is the fact I work from home. So my wife encourages me to get out of the apartment for a couple hours every day on the weekends. So, I go to Starbucks and code or read for a bit.
Everything is different with the little guy around, but it's a trade-off I can live with.
by taf2 on 3/9/17, 12:47 PM
Not saying this makes him a good father but legend says he would have the kids remain quiet during family trips because he was designing the chips while driving... it might have the story here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Cray
by sebringj on 3/8/17, 2:56 PM
by xrd on 3/8/17, 5:48 AM
by RUG3Y on 3/10/17, 3:43 PM
by padseeker on 3/8/17, 2:39 AM
The best time for me to get extended learning is after my kids go to sleep. I have a 10 and 8 year old, they're usually asleep by 9. It was harder with very young kids. Now at this age its somewhat easier.
by plehoux on 3/8/17, 2:00 PM
It's not about quantity, it's about quality. When I'm not tired, my code is better, my business decisions are better, my relationships are better, so yes, I sleep a lot.
#3 is on his way, exciting, fulfilling time!
by johanneskanybal on 3/8/17, 9:55 AM
A few things that comes to mind is motivation, time management/prioritizing, social aspect of having perhaps the most important thing in your life in common with most other seniors, meaning.
these are not things to be afraid of but sure you'll have less time
by LVB on 3/8/17, 7:04 AM
by kdazzle on 3/8/17, 3:25 PM
The only downside is that reading books doesn't help you learn new languages or frameworks.
Screw the github graph.
by sergiotapia on 3/8/17, 2:11 PM
To keep up I:
- Write open source projects for things I want to use. - Use languages that are out of my depth. - Pluralsight - Manning/PragProg books that interest me.
by lenniez on 3/8/17, 6:48 AM
I'm a full-time hired CTO for a startup and I have a 1yr old girl, married and I recently bought a house that also requires a bunch of time. 1 year ago I was addicted to learning new things and hacking things together. I had a dozen side projects and I was part of several start-ups, invested money, time and I was shareholder in a few of those start-ups.
Sad truth was for me that I couldn't combine all of these after we got the baby. I had to step down for some of the startups I was involved in. In the beginning I tried to combine it, but since I only had 5 minutes, here, 10 minutes there, it was impossible to keep up with the pace that startups require. I also couldn't plan meetings anymore with my cofounders, it was actually annoying. The little time I had I wanted to spend on engineering, not on meetings.
This has been very frustrating for me, but just like anyone else here in this hacker news thread; Working / developing couldn't bring me any of the happiness that being with my baby girl could.
Here are my random thoughts;
- Skilling up is also part of my job. I would say that around 1/3rd of my working hours it's all about reading & research. Of course, hacker news is also part of that ;-) It should be perfectly possible to talk about this with your superior and ask for more time to research or try new technology/frameworks. Everyone benefits from this.
- Commuting is part of my daily life and I use this time to either read up on things (Instapaper) or listen to podcasts, like Software Engineering Daily. Podcasts are great. I also listen to podcasts when I do boring tasks that don't require much thinking, like mowing my lawn or removing snow from the driveway.
- Step down early form side projects when they don't bring you anything.
- Learn to say no. No to sideprojects, friends with good ideas, bosses that want overtime. No.
- Watching less Netflix / movies / TV shows.
Last but not least, I was also a heavy gamer around 5 - 6 years ago. Stop gaming before you get children, I regret all those hours I played games in stead of hacking&learning. Uninstall those games, now. If I could talk to a younger me before getting children; Work hard, don't be lazy, get things done and I can't stress enough to stop gaming.
by theuttick on 3/8/17, 7:06 PM
Yes it sucks. Life is a series of choices and I choose to loose sleep instead of time with kids or work time. It took a while, but I learned javascript, angular, AWS, heroku, and several other things. It just takes longer.
by 0xdeadbeefbabe on 3/8/17, 5:01 PM
Maybe your colleague meant it in a negative way, but it could be taken as a positive statement too. You could take it as something like, "your kids will teach you to focus in a way you never have before."
It seems plausible that constraints make for greater creativity, so long as they aren't too constraining.
by sontek on 3/8/17, 3:39 PM
Our schedule:
School Drop Off: 8am Bed Time: 8:30pm
Which leaves plenty of time for reading and doing opensource. Not as much as a I used to but enough to continue being at the top of my field without worrying that the youngins are passing me.
by billylo on 3/8/17, 3:12 AM
48, son in university now.
by pietromenna on 3/8/17, 1:37 PM
by jreuben1 on 3/8/17, 4:04 AM
by sigspec on 3/8/17, 3:11 PM
But really I utilize work downtime when I can (and when I'm not distracted by HN or YouTube or Reddit, which is often).
It's a challenge but I would feel terrible isolating myself while the wife and kids are doing family things. After the kids and wife go to bed then I have plenty of time to do what I want whether that be research or leisure.
by m82labs on 3/8/17, 12:07 PM
by m23khan on 3/8/17, 3:41 PM
Addition to this, since my Wife is from other end of the globe from where I live -- I will send her and my 1 yr old for nice few months to visit her parents and siblings where I can focus on bulking up on my skills :-)
by joshuacc on 3/8/17, 5:07 PM
by 49531 on 3/8/17, 12:34 PM
Now I can stop working when the kids get home from school and put in a couple hours after they go to bed each night for extracurriculars.
by msangi on 3/8/17, 7:59 AM
The trick is that when I feed her just before going to bed I always put on a conference talk or a video lecture.
This saves me from getting bored and I also found that the background talking makes her fall asleep more easily.
by enibundo on 3/8/17, 10:46 AM
by Yaggo on 3/8/17, 8:35 AM
by tmaly on 3/8/17, 11:29 AM
You just have to stay healthy, eat, exercise, and get up an hour or two before everyone else.
I have been doing it for 4 years now, and I am still able to ship features on my side project.
by webmaven on 3/9/17, 1:12 AM
Has anyone here initially decided to not ever have kids (say, in their 20s) and then much later changed their minds (say, in their 40s or 50s)?
Alternatively, has anyone here simply put off having kids for a few decades and then had them?
How has that worked out for you, from both personal and career perspectives?
by eb0la on 3/8/17, 9:03 AM
With Variance I mean a place where you work with different kinds of problems / business / people and that will lead to work with different technologies.
This seems to work for me (I've got a 3-yr son) and keeps me updated.
by angelofm on 3/8/17, 10:49 AM
Because I am human I skip 1 day a week to do whatever I want, at weekends I do about 3h saturday and another 3h sunday of learning again when everyone is in bed so I can concentrate better.
This gives me about 12h a week of studying and experimenting with new technology.
The only way to keep up is to be organised and assign your priorities, make sure your kid is at the top, whatever it takes he needs to be at the top.
As a consequence of all this I got to understand how time is important and very scarce, I try to optimise every single free minute, this is a very hard exercise but essential.
by espeed on 3/8/17, 1:34 PM
by hydandata on 3/8/17, 10:02 AM
by nurettin on 3/8/17, 7:32 AM
Afterwards, 21:00-24:00 is plenty of time to work on projects.
by keithnz on 3/9/17, 5:12 AM
by evoltix on 3/8/17, 6:04 AM
Family is the most important. Cherish every moment. Reflect on those cherished moments. Time is but a fleeting thing.
by wenbert on 3/8/17, 7:24 AM
Oh i create tickets for myself on bitbucket and work on those at night.
by TheAndruu on 3/8/17, 10:19 AM
by Cyph0n on 3/8/17, 1:40 PM
by awjr on 3/8/17, 10:27 AM
The exercise clears your head and avoiding the time sucking waste of space that is TV, helps create the space to think and play.
by kagaw on 3/8/17, 9:11 AM
by bluejekyll on 3/8/17, 3:24 AM
by cwbrandsma on 3/8/17, 3:39 PM
So 8:00 to 9:00 (maybe 10:00) is my window.
by agentgt on 3/8/17, 12:18 PM
I have felt a little guilty about my productivity but it is totally worth it.
My best advice is just to stop comparing yourself or your family to other people.
by cstuder on 3/8/17, 7:03 AM
In the evenings, I'm usually just too exhausted from work & family to do any more intellectual work.
by jwatte on 3/8/17, 6:57 PM
by asaaahbra94104 on 3/8/17, 8:07 AM
by patsplat on 3/8/17, 5:18 AM
by evolve2k on 3/8/17, 2:43 PM
by petewailes on 3/8/17, 7:07 AM
by synrst on 3/8/17, 2:42 PM
If you got married or had a kid and it ruined your life, it's your problem. Don't project failures onto others.
by z3t4 on 3/8/17, 12:32 PM
by pjmlp on 3/8/17, 10:02 AM
Life is too short to spend coding after work, without space for family and friends.
by 5_minutes on 3/8/17, 11:00 PM
by alkonaut on 3/8/17, 11:45 AM
by thafuzziest on 3/8/17, 5:06 PM
by m-j-fox on 3/8/17, 4:36 PM
by somecallitblues on 3/8/17, 12:13 PM
by hellofunk on 3/8/17, 12:41 PM
Having kids and being productive are not mutually exclusive.
by new_hackers on 3/8/17, 1:28 AM
by omouse on 3/8/17, 2:58 PM
by sitkack on 3/8/17, 1:55 PM
by yakaas on 3/8/17, 1:58 AM
and then when you find some time it comes at a cost.
waking up early is an option, works well for me. but the catch is you get tired easily and then in long term it affects health.
my advise is to pick things very carefully, time is very limited.
by ChristianMarks on 3/8/17, 10:13 AM
by _pmf_ on 3/8/17, 6:59 AM
by eli on 3/8/17, 11:59 AM
by robot on 3/8/17, 6:28 AM
You should also have an hour or so after the kids sleep.
by fiatjaf on 3/8/17, 2:01 PM
by franze on 3/8/17, 8:31 AM
also if you eliminate time wasters like TV, netflix, alcohol you have plenty of time with your kids, for your kids and for code.
by kk_cz on 3/8/17, 10:21 AM
by bartvk on 3/9/17, 6:12 AM
by VLM on 3/8/17, 3:39 PM
First of all most people social status signalling are liars and the few who aren't are very unusual from unusual situations. There aren't that many book authors or operating system kernel authors. So debating the engineering operations of lightning strikes and lotto wins is kinda pointless nonsense. What if my project takes over the world? Well it won't now stop daydreaming and work on real issues that are important. As for the liars you just have to read the books they talk about a little more than they do, which might mean as little as a light skim or getting to page 2 instead of giving up on page 1, or experiment with the new flash in the pan software for an hour instead of their five minutes. You'll still be ahead of 90% of the population.
Secondly give up on careers, ignore upward mobility, if you're not happy where you are today, daydreaming about being one of the very few who make it to the top of the pyramid is a bad life strategy dooming you to unhappiness in later life. Anyone over 30 is probably working with tools in a field that didn't exist when they were 20 and if they claim they got their via conscious effort they're just liars and status signalling see #1 above. If they're over 40 ageism is about to remove almost all of them from the field so since you're going to get kicked out anyway may as well have fun having kids along the way, because you aren't going to "win" and thats OK. The difference between a guy unemployed by ageism at 45 without kids and a guy unemployed at 45 by ageism with kids is the unemployed guy with kids is had more fun, had a better life. Merely not having kids doesn't mean the "agism fairy" will not wave her wand on you ending your career. Sometimes the rate of change is crazy, I spent my early 30s in a field that didn't exist when I was in school. If you think you can plan that and apply a timeline for a career against it, you're merely lying to yourself or others. Nothing wrong with having general goals, but specific tasks of "XYZ at 40" is for losers. Even worse there's survivorship bias where random lotto winners think they have ESP but actually just won the lotto and thinking they have ESP leads to very bad life decisions.
Thirdly a super politically incorrect "dad pill" is depending on demographics about half the kids out there are growing up with no dad, so having you around and out of jail and providing and guiding and playing with them occasionally immediately puts the kids in the upper half or even upper quarter of society even if you do the worst bad job as dad in the country, which you probably will not sink to. Actually doing anything with the kids already puts you in elite territory. Another way to phrase it is there's a lot of political indoctrination that kids only need 1.00 parents that being the mom of course, so if you're feeling bummed about taking time for yourself or career you're still providing 1.75 worth of parents which is 0.75 more than society claims is necessary or even ideal. Just like the kid who gets a Ferrari for his birthday from dad doesn't necessarily turn out better in life than the kid who got a Ford from dad, when you're far enough into the corner of the bell curve of doing anything at all, the specific ordering and timeclock measurements don't affect rank as much as paying attention and being there and not being a dirtbag and actually parenting the kids as opposed to being their big person friend roommate and "skills" in general.
Fourthly related to "no one is gonna make it to the top of the pyramid" just learn at work like everyone else does. Well, actually some people don't even learn at work. If you're not a quick learner, its important to learn how to learn first. You're not really competing against people who claim to have infinite time to learn because they have no kids, you're competing against people who never learned in college or refuse to learn post college. You're gonna do fine.
Fifth relating to liars telling lies, decades ago when I was a young single guy it sounds very self serving to express lies about how all I ever did was work on technology because I had no kids, but mostly I drank and watched sports and chased girls and had sex and breakups and interpersonal drama and listened to music and watched TV. Well the dad pill is you might want to think about growing up, and when you cut all that waste of time junk out that doesn't really matter in the long run anyway or you've outgrown binge drinking or you got a wife so dating is probably over for awhile, even when you add back in "dad duties" you still have plenty of free time because you're not being a drunk bastard every weekend night, or if you're doing that instead of parenting, you suck so fix that at which point you'll have plenty of free time again. So grow up, man up, dad up, whatever and put down the beer bottle or switch off the TV, in the long run parenting the kids is going to be most important, then all this "work for free for the boss at home" stuff a distant second, and you'll still have some time to goof off anyway.
Believe it or not when farmhands worked the fields sunup to sundown or dads worked in factories six twelves a week or when dads fought in war deployments for years at a time, they still fathered their kids reasonable better than the current crop of kids. You got it easy now. Just put some effort into it and you'll be fine. So thats the "dad pill". Not as cool as the red pill or blue pill but more masculine and useful in the real world.
by crispytx on 3/8/17, 10:05 AM
by master_yoda_1 on 3/8/17, 5:32 PM
by verytrivial on 3/8/17, 11:51 AM
by eranation on 3/8/17, 8:27 PM
by moron4hire on 3/8/17, 12:05 PM
I'm sorry, that's not meant as a dismissal. I mean it quite literally. There have been three things in my life that have improved it immensely: therapy, getting married, and having a kid. Everything else is window dressing.
I needed therapy to learn how to evaluate myself. I needed to get married to start feeling comfortable with myself. And I needed to have a kid to realize my low six-figure web and database consulting business was never going to have a meaningful impact on the world and I needed to focus on my VR project.
I've learned that commenting on Reddit does not make me happy. Playing video games does not make me happy. Watching TV and reading books doesn't make me happy. They are occasionally enjoyable, but to make these things a regular part of my life is just a holding pattern, a low-grade dopamine hit that just maintains the current state. What makes me actually, really happy, actually making progress towards not feeling depressed, not feeling anxious, is spending time with my wife and son and making progress on my passion project.
And I say "making progress" specifically, rather than "working on". Going through therapy gave me a new set of skills on being more objective towards evaluating my own life, admitting to myself when things are sunk costs, not going anywhere, etc. I come from a long line of "creative procrastinators". We are the sort of people who put off filing taxes at the end of the year by cleaning the house. It stems out of fear of the unknown, but the point is that we are very good at slipping into the terrible habit of being active instead of productive. I've had many a project that I thought was "the one" that was going to be my startup, and I'd inevitably slip into micro focusing on technical details rather than keeping an eye on the goal and focusing on doing those things that make progress towards them.
I got a little lucky in that I was able to find a great, small team of people to make that work my day job. It's "luck" in the sense that I had to be in the right places at the right time to draw their attention to eventually negotiate a partnership. But it wasn't "if you build it, they will come". That movie is about a literal miracle. I had to stop dicking around on code 100% of my time and start focusing more time on marketing myself.
Quit hanging out in bars. Quit hanging out with the "friends" you only sort of like, but you secretly suspect are only in your life because they are in your extended circle. Quit spending all morning on HN, Twitter, Facebook. Be honest with yourself. You already know what is keeping you from progressing. You just have to stop relying on emotional crutches so you can discard them and focus on what is important.
by dvdhnt on 3/8/17, 2:19 AM
-- The Whole Story --
First, a little about my current, professional role; I'm one of 3 backend/web developers and the primary dev for our flagship i/e enterprise offering. I don't deal with architecture or design unless I request to do so. I am responsible for writing the majority of our tests, choosing and implementing the tools we test with, and participate fully in code-review, QA, and bug reporting/fixing. Like many devs, I attend weekly meet-ups, code side-projects, and do my best to stay abreast of developments in, well, development.
Personally, I have 2 children, 1 of pre-school age and the other in an early elementary school grade. I'm able to -
* help my oldest daughter with homework * attend school functions * pick them up from daycare often * do activities, like dress-up, painting, and building forts * each night: give them baths, read them bedtime stories, and sing them lullabies
Our sitter, a family friend, recently asked me "how do you do it?" and followed up with "I'd be exhausted!" Her question caught me off guard. I don't necessarily think I'm doing anything special. In fact, I often find myself worried that I'm not doing well enough. Luckily, there are people like her in my life who remind me that I, and my wife, do a pretty damn good job.
-- How is this possible? --
Well, for one, it's because of people like her; the people in my family's lives who care about us. Another contributing factor is the company I work for, an organization that actually cares about me. Our team is willing to pick up the slack when a member needs help. Being based in Chattanooga makes a difference, too, and although commute times can reach ~45 mins, it's a fairly low ceiling, especially when compared to SV commute times. Lastly, if you work on a team, and that team doesn't give you the opportunity to grow your own skill-set within your professional-role, then that team is failing you. There's a reason that professional athletes are given access to training facilities and musicians are allotted time for rehearsal; you need to exercise your dev muscles. If it weren't for my team sometimes giving me the opportunity to explore rabbit holes, and knowing when to pull me out, I wouldn't be half the dev I am today.
PS - yes, when you first become a parent, your education/productivity/effectiveness takes a hit; that's just how it is. Otherwise, you'd be leaving your significant other/partner to do it all, and I've seen how that can affect a relationship. It's important to acknowledge this drop-off, plan for it, and make up at least a portion of that lost ground over time.
Good luck!
by w_t_payne on 3/8/17, 7:28 AM
by workingdad on 3/8/17, 6:23 AM
- A work relationship that supports your personal growth and family. I am extremely lucky to have a job that actively encourages me to take time to learn and skill up while on the clock and also engages me in planning my long term career growth with them. They also really care about my family and make sure I have the ability to take care of them with things like good insurance and the ability to leave with a short notice for things like sick kids or other personal emergencies. I know not everyone has that opportunity, but if you do, think twice before skipping over it.
- A solid support network. I wouldn't be able to function without my wife's and my parents. Got one sick kid but the other still needs to go to school? My parents come in clutch every time. Again, we're very fortunate to have them but we've taken it for granted in the past when looking to move cities and being near a strong support network is always a positive with kids.
- Friends/Hobbies. I haven't quite figured out a good balance with this one myself. For a long time I never made time to hang out with friends or just do something I liked because I felt like I couldn't afford that luxury. If I get home by 5, that only gives me a couple of hours with my boys before bedtime. The time after that I want to spend with my wife. If I go out with friends, I'm missing that small window of time to be with them. But as I mentioned earlier, that's not totally healthy because if you keep that up too long then when the time comes to let loose, it happens in a big way. For now, there's a small bar/restaurant between work and home that I've taken to knock off an hour early every few weeks and spend a couple hours with friends there. It's on the way home, so the commute doesn't cut in to how much time I get to spend, and I still make it home only a little later than normal. My next step is probably to start going in to work earlier so I have a little more free time in the evenings for something I miss dearly: reading for pleasure.
I envy those who manage to find a good balance and routine, but it's just a work in progress for us all. If/when you become a parent, you'll have to find what works best for you.
by jstewartmobile on 3/8/17, 7:45 AM
Most of these things the HN crowd obsesses over are shit, and the things that replace those things will also be shit, and the thing you make with those things--even if it makes you fabulously wealthy--will also be shit, and if you don't believe me, take Ryan Dahl's word for it: https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437
So rather than worry about sliding further away from the apex of our shit pyramid, ease up and enjoy the ride. You may even come up with something of actual value to society along the way.
by nullundefined on 3/8/17, 7:08 AM
Second of all, there are many ways to "skill up" and that doesn't always mean creating open source side projects or experimenting with the newest fad.
After becoming a father I found I certainly had a lot less time but it forced me to cut out everything that didn't matter. That included watching tech talks, working on a bunch of small projects, getting my "commit a day" on GitHub, reading a large number of books, and so on.
Instead, I decided what I needed and wanted was financial freedom and I wanted to achieve that by building my own software business(es).
I stopped measuring myself by silly graphs or what others in the industry may or may not think of me. I stopped second guessing myself and I stopped worrying about my "marketability" or "maintaining skills" for hireability's sake.
Why worry about skills, marketable or keeping up with the fads if I work for myself? As long as I'm true to myself and I can build kickass products, I don't care about anything else.
Since then, I've built my own successful business and I am currently working on the second (second baby and second business!).
by marknadal on 3/8/17, 5:59 AM
What is the magic sauce to doing it all?
Family.
I owe everything to my supportive wife, who herself just successfully defended her PhD last week and published a paper with one of the most prolific scientists in psychology (and science in general, Baumeister has over 120,000 citations - more than Hawking!).
When you make sure you have a healthy relationship, by edifying each other and promoting each other's ideals/dreams, life becomes a flourishing whirlwind of excitement - psychologists call this "eudaimonia".
Care for, and love what is right, true, noble, and worthwhile. All else will fade away, and then you'll have time for what matters. And never, ever, give up.
by zoner on 3/8/17, 11:50 AM
Things change and it's very grateful just looking at them playing.
I do have fun time programming on hobby projects, but less. I still have time for paragliding, but not as much as I would. I made a rocking pram using Japanese woodcarving tools. That's a new hobby :) I do learn new things at work as I advance in my career, it's very important to keep up, I don't have any choice right now.
by nogenerix on 3/8/17, 1:01 AM
by bbcbasic on 3/8/17, 5:16 AM
by known on 3/8/17, 10:26 AM
by gaius on 3/9/17, 8:48 AM
by grey-sunshine on 3/8/17, 11:00 AM
by Pica_soO on 3/8/17, 10:54 AM
by majkinetor on 3/8/17, 1:17 PM
With 1 or 2 kids there is life. Less life then before when talking about work, or you suck as a parent.
The thing is, you can't devote all your time to kids. Too much attention and they become unable to do anything on their own, they will require your presence all the time. Too little with kids and you suck as a parent and get to miss single time event, enjoying the time with your kids while they are the appropriate age and you are still their hero.
So it turns to be a balance, IMO - some days or weeks you will get 0 personal time for development and some days you will get planty. Count a time with the spouse too. Bad relation on this level quickly turns out to be the worst decision for entire family.
Now, some other skills will be useful here: triage, organizational skills, medicine (to keep yourself helthy as much as possible and in good shape) etc...
