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Ask HN: How to start a business while working a 9-5 coding job?

by throwawasiudy on 2/10/17, 9:22 AM with 26 comments

Hey guys. My main issue is being able to start a business while working for a regular employer. It's something I've wanted to do for years but I can't find a single place that doesn't require a non-compete+IP assignment agreement.

The normal advice is to keep on with your employer until you grow your side business to profitability. That would be great if every single employer didn't shackle my mind with "agreements" that make it nigh impossible to do anything of value for myself.

I've roughly calculated I could save enough to quit my job with a year runway if I save for 3 years (a long ass time)! The other common advice is to get investment from friends and family, as if most people's f&f have 50k they're able to throw at anything let alone someone who's financially independent and outwardly successful.

So given that the HN crowd has a ton of entrepreneurs and business owners, how do you do it? There must be some way out that I'm not seeing. Are these employment agreements not really enforceable? Scare tactics like telling employees they can't talk about salary? Is investment easier to come by than it seems? Small business loans? I spent a few years of my life getting into a position where starting a business is reasonable minus the lack of money. I don't want to watch another three years go by before I can do anything about it.

  • by sogen on 2/10/17, 5:11 PM

    If you create something Not related to your job you are safe about the f*ng non-compete.

    How to start?

    2. Wake up at 5am and work 2 hours daily.

    1. But most important, just create a landing page to see if there are any signups before you spend a year working on it.

    3. If there's any interest, work on a minimal paying version that has a positive cash flow from day one.

    4. Sales and marketing. Invest in a good ad campaign, word of mouth, and some user research if you can.

    5. Fail fast, try more than one marketing idea.

  • by hellwd on 2/10/17, 4:10 PM

    This is a really interesting topic. I think almost every developer dreams about his own business or product. I personally don't see that sitting minimum 8 hours per day for someone else makes sense, but on the other side at the same time, you are safe, someone else takes care about lot of things for you. It's hard to project any path which leads to own successful business. So far what I have seen is that only thing that counts here are balls, if you know what I mean :) One of the ways which is reasonable for me, is to first try to switch to freelancing and there you can test and see are you actually able to take care about lot of things that are usually done by the company, and btw those things are not coding. With your experience and knowledge you should be able to find really good freelancing jobs or you can even try to join some platform for freelancers... Being a freelancer is almost the same as starting your own business. Later if you see that you can earn lot more money or to hire some geeks, just open a company and take a next step.

  • by segmondy on 2/10/17, 7:34 PM

    So long as you work in something completely unrelated to your job, never talk about it at work, never bring it up at work, don't even google it. Don't work on it, don't use their equipment, don't take their equipment home, or use any resources. Don't partner up with any coworker or ex-colleague, you should be fine. If it turns into million dollar idea, you could be sued, but then you can afford a lawyer, if it doesn't turn into something big, you probably won't be sued.

  • by itamarst on 2/11/17, 11:36 PM

    After you've gotten a lawyer to look at your current agreement, you may find it's enforceable and actually prevents you from building a side project.

    If that's the case, you do have the option of finding a new job. Some companies have more lenient IP agreements. And if you're a desirable enough candidate and it's a small company, you can negotiate a custom IP contract.

    I've done that twice!

    If you negotiate an IP contract and you get back "but our lawyer says the contract is cool", what you do is have your lawyer propose amendments. Often it's not so much the content of the changes that gets pushback, just the effort and cost of the process. So if you pay your lawyer to do the legal work it can make it a lot easier.

    (I hired Rex Baker - http://www.rexbaker.com/ - he's great.)

    More broadly, negotiation is a key career skill, whether or not you want to be starting your own business. E.g. you can also negotiate a shorter workweek so you have more time for your side business.

    I go into this a bit more in an email course I wrote on getting to a sane workweek (https://codewithoutrules.com/saneworkweek/), a very abbreviated version of a book I'm working on.

  • by id122015 on 2/10/17, 9:59 PM

    If you are one of the best who can do all the developer work fast and the business rules, go for it, little by little.

    I am on the other side of the fence. I'm trying to build something for myself but from time to time I dream to be employed. Even when I took a job, not it IT, the employers could see that I was not totally into that job, and I think that was the reason why I left some jobs or I was fired at other times. No one likes an employee who lacks motivation.

    I suggest to wait for the right time if you care so much for the current job and dont want to loose it. Once you start a project your mind will be all the time at that. If you dont believe me, I'm telling you I was driving my employer by car and my mind was just not there, I was not going to stop at red at traffic lights, but I did because my employer did shout. And I worked other jobs also but my mind was not there.

  • by nicholas73 on 2/10/17, 3:50 PM

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it difficult for the employer to prove if you worked on your business while employed? Suppose you don't keep a timestamped code repository, do your market validation work that looks generic (web browsing, some calls and emails to prospective customers), don't use any company equipment, and last but not least do not blast online that you are the owner of a business.

    You can then quit when it looks like the business can start generating money, and your employer would be none the wiser, right? Or heck, keep on working as how would they find out? Unless you will need to take investment, you can just keep it a secret?

  • by jjoe on 2/10/17, 10:36 AM

    That's the conundrum! It's not easy. And because you don't want to burn bridges and want to have a clear conscience, work on a vertical to your employer's. This means you'll likely need to spend time learning about a new vertical. But that's OK you're determined and hungry. I've done it. People have done it.

    So don't overcomplicate. Build a daily habit for the next few years. And don't bog yourself down with little details and ifs and buts. I started with a $80/mo allocation. Some were able to do it with $0/month.

  • by rijoja on 2/10/17, 9:52 AM

    Don't really know. Start out with trying to get as disciplined as possible. You have to have minute control over your daily schedule. Start out with allocating 2 hours a day or so.I

    As far as IP assignment the only thing I could come up with is to license all your code under GPL. Since you are the creator the sheer complexity of the code and the fact that you wrote it, will make you the unquestionable authority of the project. Lets say Linus Thorvalds applied for a job that requires intimate knowledge of the Linux kernel, he would be among the top candidates to say the least.

    But I'm interested to get more information on these IP laws. How common is it that employers use this? I mean the software you are developing might be in some other subset of the market. Would a company really waste time on attaining IP for a product which is far from what they sell? Or am I being naive? Also if the threat is real, would using a GPL license solve this problem? Is it even possible to apply the GPL license legally?

  • by sunnyhacker on 2/12/17, 1:22 AM

    A while ago, people on HN were discussing about Joel Spolsky's essay "Developers' side projects". Interesting discussion about the legal concerns and where to start.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13142327

    // Edited to insert the link to that HN thread.

  • by bsvalley on 2/10/17, 3:21 PM

    1. Find another job where there is no agreement

    2. Work on your side project after work and on the weekends

    3. If you see it's picking up, quit

    No excuses...

  • by throwaway201721 on 2/10/17, 5:14 PM

    IANAL but unless you are actually competing with your employer, you are fine.

    I have worked in major companies and heard far too many developers whining about their non-competes and not taking actions.

    Then I know a few who never ever complained about non-compete or any other such non-sense. They are the ones who actually started companies. I am also one of them. Most of my ex-coworkers did their best to scare me and make me quit my sidebusiness but luckily I didn't listen to them.

    Just be smart, respect your employer, don't steal their ideas, code, or time. Also don't brag about your sidebusiness. Your boss will have to file paperwork if they hears about your sidebusiness. Don't complicate life for them.

    In the end, talk to lawyer just to cya.

  • by msencenb on 2/10/17, 6:04 PM

    First of all, talk to a lawyer if you have legal concerns. HN is not the right place to take advice about legal issues.

    Second, I would explore the idea of working part-time. Last April I switched jobs and now work part-time at one company while having two days a week to work on my own software. I make enough money at my part-time job to give myself infinite runway (my personal expenses are low, I have health insurance through that job, and I'm still contributing to retirement/savings which is important to not overlook). In my opinion, this is a much better option than going freelance, as you only have to context switch between two projects and you always know you have a paycheck coming in the door.

  • by ladytron on 2/10/17, 6:38 PM

    Work as an independent contractor. You are not an employee and even if you create IP for your client, they do not own your off time. For example, if you had two clients, they would not own the others ip.

    If they send you a blanket ip agreement as a contractor, modify it to only agree to the created ip during working hours.

    Rules are: Not on company equipment Not on company time Work on projects not related to your day job

    Being employee status is trickier than a independent consultant though.

  • by jetti on 2/10/17, 2:37 PM

    Talk to a lawyer and see if the agreement is enforceable or if it would be thrown out in court. From there you know how you can proceed.

  • by mars4rp on 2/10/17, 7:07 PM

    if you are in CA, come work for state, there is no agreement and the work load is so light that you can do it in less than 2 days a week and do other stuff with you remaining time. I am doing on my own side project now and I am happy here for now.

    if you want more information shoot me an email at bpourtaherian at yahoo :D.

  • by nnn1234 on 2/11/17, 3:32 PM

    Here is a way, you dont have to start a business for you to test your idea.

    We are building a platform where people can contribute create. We are doing a meta campaign to crowdsource our own dev.

    Please check out www.crowdraising.co Once you have a team then you can start a business. This should help with your current dilemma as well.

  • by coralreef on 2/10/17, 10:03 AM

    Is your idea related to the business you currently work at? If not, just build it.

  • by sharemywin on 2/10/17, 2:14 PM

    you could look a businesses out side of developing a platform. something without intellectual property.