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Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

by zump on 2/10/17, 7:55 AM with 75 comments

• by patio11 on 2/10/17, 8:09 AM

  Most of the more straightforward answers to this question end up with you making the majority of that million from your entrepreneurial skills rather than software development skills. (For example, "Found a software development consultancy and grow it to 8~12 employees.")

  In terms of straight up W-2ing without taking entrepreneurial levels of risk, I think you're looking at either finance or (restricting 25% to ~10%) AppAmaGooBookSoft. Note that you're not aiming to have the engineering skills of Jeff Dean but rather looking to have the business impact of the guy who coded the credit card processing for AdWords. (An identifiable person who actually exists, or I would be more explicit about the returns to that example.)

  There's also "Join a startup as a very early engineer" but you're primarily compensated for picking the winner there -- there's many great businesses in the ranks of e.g. YC companies but if you had joined as the first non-founding engineer the majority do not result in the outcome you're looking for.

  I'll leave the obligatory disclaimer "What motivates this goal? There are probably more interesting goals if you consider your values carefully."

• by gigatexal on 2/10/17, 8:13 AM

  Doesn't anyone else think this post is full of arrogance? Sure you don't have to be the best programmer in the world to earn millions but this just screams "I want to be mediocre and make much, much more than others." But yes, the quickest way to millions is starting a company as others have said.

• by nvarsj on 2/10/17, 8:40 AM

  Don't be an engineer? If you're purely in it for the money, I would suggest the way to get 1mn/year is to join a hedge fund or prop trading firm as a trader. Steps: 1. Graduate from an ivy league school with a good GPA so it's easy to get in the door 2. Pass rigorous math based interviews - lots of guides on studying for these 3. Make money on your desk, which requires the ability to learn financial concepts, and quick thinking on the job - if you can play Starcraft well, or multi task online poker, you can do this. You don't need social skills or anything for this, apart from the interview process, it's almost purely analytical.

  Making that kind of money as an engineer is much more of a crap shoot. Just be the best engineer you can and have big influence wherever you work. Then get very lucky and work on the right project at the right time at the right company.

  On a more philosophical note - if you spend your life chasing money, odds are you're going to end up pretty unhappy. Try not to succumb to the capitalist rat race - I know it's hard, but it will make you happier :).

  edit: Updated to be less hyperbolic. It's still tough to make a lot of money even going the trader route.

• by risingintonatio on 2/10/17, 8:52 AM

  I've become more and more convinced that $1M+ per year is not realistic as an engineer.

  There are compensation spreadsheets floating around and I've been privy to Facebook's and Google's. Assuming the numbers there are accurate (and anecdotally they are), even the "top 5%" engineers getting discretionary equity and bonus don't make more than $600k.

  Meanwhile, executives easily make twice that in yearly cash bonuses.

  I've grown a disdain towards said execs for being paid incommensurate with their actual value generated. Perhaps that's just my naïveté, and indeed they are that valuable. But I don't think so.

  In short, to command astronomical salaries you need a pyramid of people working beneath you, so that you can garner part of their productivity for yourself.

  Charisma will help you get there.

• by lsiebert on 2/10/17, 8:11 AM

  Social skills are skills, not talents, and develop with practice. That said, be a boss, a CTO, or technical founder. Engineers are well paid professionals, but as with any high paid profession, you make a lot more owning your own company then working for someone else who is extracting value from your efforts.

• by dandelany on 2/10/17, 8:12 AM

  Step 1: grow some social skills. Coding skills alone won't make you a millionaire unless you get lucky and invent a unicorn.

  Sidenote: the 75th percentile isn't making anywhere near $1M.

• by adamnemecek on 2/10/17, 8:10 AM

  You need to build a service/app. It's generally about the business aspect of things rather than the programming side. Indie Hackers has a bunch of interviews with people who managed to make something like this happen http://indiehackers.com/

• by amorphic on 2/10/17, 9:32 AM

  It sounds like you want to get rich by earning wages. A wise man once said to me:

  "Nobody ever got rich by earning wages."

• by quasiuna on 2/10/17, 8:18 AM

  The only industry paying developers this much is the game industry. It's not uncommon for AAA game developers (e.g. Developers for call of duty, GTA etc.) to have a profit share in their employment contract. When a new game goes live and sells hundreds of millions of copies in a single weekend, the rewards for some developers can be huge.

  In a nutshell, learn C++.

• by myrandomcomment on 2/10/17, 8:38 AM

  I know software engineers at one of the startups I was at that went public pulled down $2-10m depending on when they joined (and sold). They all are top 1%. Also they spent 4-6 years pre-IPO.

  Top 25%? Yah no.

  You best bet is a steady job at the big 4 with a good RSU plan.

• by jankotek on 2/10/17, 8:27 AM

  $1e6 / (10 hours/day * 6 days/week) = ~ $330/hour.

  As a consultant you might be able to get to this salary. But you will be able to bill only a fraction of your time.

• by _dax on 2/10/17, 2:29 PM

  The world isn't so simple that pay scales with skill. There's definitely a base level of proficiency that you need but it's not so high. It's more about making the decisions, choosing industries where this is possible, and managing to stay interested.

  I know a few people between ages 40-50 that make this much working at a hedge fund as pure engineers. None of them are incredible, to be honest I could do their job and I'm half their age. They've just put in their time there, didn't get distracted by more interesting opportunities, and don't mind a typical office job with no perks.

• by vostok on 2/10/17, 8:50 AM

  This kind of pay is very highly correlated to excellent social skills. There is also luck involved and you need to be at the right place at the right time.

  I agree with Patrick that you are far more likely to achieve this through entrepreneurship than through working in technology (or finance for that matter).

• by austinjp on 2/10/17, 8:32 AM

  Talent, grit, luck. All are important, only some can be optimised.

  Why engineering? If money is so important to you there might be other industries better suited.

  You sound Machiavellian, or that you may edge towards it. Be careful with that. Money is no good if it can't buy you what you want or need.

• by yami on 2/10/17, 8:40 AM

  It's not about money. It's about time AND money ! You should read "the 4 hours work week" by Tim Ferriss (or at least listen it https://youtu.be/ojgsw8IGT2o)

• by gadders on 2/10/17, 11:22 AM

  I didn't know who Jeff Dean was, but I found this page enlightening:

  https://www.quora.com/What-are-all-the-Jeff-Dean-facts

• by monodeldiablo on 2/10/17, 9:52 AM

  You want to get rich, but aren't willing to invest in your social and technical skills? Good luck with that. If anybody's looking for a textbook definition for "lazy and entitled", the attitude implied by this question is as close as I've ever seen. Please keep in mind that I don't mean that as an insult.

  Now, with that out of the way, I will say this: There's a pernicious myth in the industry that you need to be "brilliant" to create something valuable and successful. Which is bullshit. You just need to be competent, persistent, and extraordinarily lucky.

  Here, in order, are the modern keys to wealth:

  - Know rich people. Be someone they enjoy hanging out with. People want to work with people they like, so this greatly increases the odds they'll throw you a project or put you on their team. See: Balmer, Steve. (NOTE: This requires social skills.)

  - Create a business product. Be a middle man. Build a product that identifies and ameliorates a common business pain point. Find a major, underlying cost that is industry-wide and create a service or app that reduces this cost for the user. As quickly as possible, put competent people to work under you. Scale quickly and gets lots of smart people in your corner quickly. (NOTE: This requires social skills, observational skills, persistence, technical skills, and a generous helping of luck.)

  - Create a consumer product. Be a founder. Build a business that satisfies a base human desire (entertainment, sex, greed, etc.) and charge money for it. See above. (NOTE: This requires all the same skills as above, plus more luck. The consumer space is packed with competition.)

  - Be indispensable in a lucrative, but unpopular, niche. Specialize in MUMPS or COBOL or FORTRAN. Pick an industry that many avoid, like porn or gambling or spam. There's less competition, sure, but there's also higher risk to your long-term employment. And you have to live with yourself, so be sure you're OK with your choice. (NOTE: This seems to be the most compatible with your skill set and attitude, but might not be an ethical/moral match.)

  - Grind away in a decent job, save aggressively, and invest. Be boring. Get a $120k/yr job and live like a student, putting at least half your income into savings. After a few years, start investing that money in people more motivated/skilled than yourself. This has the highest likelihood of working out -- assuming economic stability -- but is the least sexy option available to moderately talented engineers because it takes a long time. (NOTE: You'll still probably need social skills to be successful at this.)

  - Get profoundly lucky. Be in the right place at the right time. Be the founding engineer or a stupid startup at a time when VCs are throwing money at everything and asking no questions. Be an early hire at a unicorn. Stumble on the next Angry Birds or Pokemon Go or whatever. (NOTE: This is entirely beyond your control. Almost everybody in The Valley of Dreams is pursuing this goal. You're still better-served by having technical and social skills.)

• by lscore720 on 2/12/17, 4:55 AM

  The idea of this question being taken seriously is worrisome. These were the exact types of questions I saw made by entry level finance folks 10 years ago before the bubble popped. The level of immaturity, entitlement, and arrogance made me think it was a troll post, but the serious responses make me question the HN mindset sometimes.

• by lutusp on 2/10/17, 8:39 AM

  > How can I make pull in $1mn+ as an engineer?

  > I don't want to have to be in the top 1% like Jeff Dean, but top 25% and still get these results.

  That's a contradiction in terms. If you made a million dollars, that outcome would place you in the top 1% among software engineers.

  If the Efficient Market Hypothesis is valid and in operation in the software marketplace, then to make a million dollars, you will have to earn it. It's really as simple as that. Speaking as someone who made plenty more than a million dollars -- by earning it.

  > Don't have social skills and want to make more money.

  But people without social skills end up working for people who do have social skills. The latter collect the money, the former do the work.

• by RichardHeart on 2/10/17, 8:09 AM

  This question is quite similar to "How do I play basketball as well as Michael Jordan?" You're more likely be able to make $1M a year with something that works for you while you're sleeping, than by trading your hours for dollars. I made a youtube video on this idea.

• by ashurov on 2/10/17, 8:08 AM

  built something to sell or try to find a job in the algo trading business.

• by ryankennedyio on 2/10/17, 8:41 AM

  Learn kdb+/q, move into trading, be lucky.

• by justincormack on 2/10/17, 8:38 AM

  You should be able to make that in computer crime, and it sounds like that would fit with your world view. At some point your lack of social skills might cause a problem but probably not for a while.

• by xiphias on 2/10/17, 8:44 AM

  Build a company that cures cancer, it can make you much richer, than just the low ball $1M/year.

• by Tharkun on 2/10/17, 8:26 AM

  Start by learning SI units. Then social skills. Then realism. There is no realistic way for a "25%" software engineer to net 1M. Many don't even net a tenth of that.