from Hacker News

Calling bullshit

by roye on 1/12/17, 12:03 PM with 272 comments

by acjohnson55 on 1/12/17, 2:19 PM
Admirable, but misguided. Fact-based argument has never been effective. The Greeks knew this. We keep forgetting it at our own peril. We know how to think critically; most of us simply choose not to.
The audience who would see this kind of course/site are likely people who pretty much already have their head screwed on the right way. It would be much better to train them in effective rhetoric so they can counter the bullshit in real arguments.
We keep forgetting that people tend to support policies and politicians for largely social and psychological reasons, not because of facts and ideology. The former are where the real battle is fought.
I spend a lot of time debating with people who disagree with me politically. It's nearly impossible to have a factual debate. So stop trying. Instead, make your point based on common morals, do it with compassion and generosity of spirit, and don't allow the goalposts of the debate to be moved. Throw in like two of couple of your choicest facts and sources, but don't expect them to help. Move on and repeat.
by natural_capital on 1/12/17, 12:55 PM
I really like this idea, though struggle to understand the effectiveness.
My guess is that the type of person who falls victim to 'bullshit' theory or messages is not the kind of person who is willing to dedicate time to an online course about learning to be more critical in thought. 'Bullshit' thinking has been largely successful because its an effortless pathway to establishing an opinion on something (queue System 1/System 2 thinking).
Conversely, the people who would be willing to read this sort of content are likely the people who are already reasonable skeptical about what they take as face value.
by arethuza on 1/12/17, 12:50 PM
From the "patron saint of reason and common sense" I can recommend Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit" from superb The Demon-Haunted World:
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-k...
by lowbloodsugar on 1/12/17, 2:53 PM
My wife took a Critical Thinking course at college. Changed her life, and as a result, my life and our kids'. Blows me away that only 90 people per year at that institution took that course. Meanwhile, back in the public school system, we have examiners mistaking their own opinions as fact. [1]
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13348672
by jankotek on 1/12/17, 1:06 PM
I am not sure I like this site. It uses strong language, but avoids anything controversial and provided case studies are pretty shallow.
Nothing like some Youtube channels, where presenter spends one hour deconstructing some study, to its sources and sources of the sources.
by onion2k on 1/12/17, 12:45 PM
This seems like a similar idea to Julian Baggini's "Edge of Reason"[1]. In the book he investigates how we've become very bad at using reason (in the philosophical sense of the word) to examine things around us. I'm about 1/2 way through and I've been finding it very interesting indeed.
[1] http://yalebooks.co.uk/display.asp?k=9780300208238 - There's a brief interview with the author that introduces the book on there.
by wvh on 1/12/17, 3:46 PM
I'm sorry to be this negative, but people simply don't care. They don't care because thinking critically and trying to grasp subtle nuances and balance complex opinions about the world will not directly improve their lives. Convenient truths and easy emotions feel more comfortable and as if they have a direct "return on investment". Most people prefer simple truths, certainty and connection to/identification with a group over uncertainty, doubt and existential loneliness. (Or at least that's what I see, as somebody who is somewhat on the autistic spectrum and doesn't easily connect with a lot of this group-think.)
It's laudable to fight this, just very prone to disillusion.
by willvarfar on 1/12/17, 12:44 PM
Bullshit is a numbers game, just like spam. Spam doesn't particularly try not to look like spam or avoid spam filters because the target audience isn't employing decent countermeasures.
Maybe marketing can be elevated to the same standard as phishing, where effort is put into deceiving our filters?
If so, this would be a very useful course for a marketeer to attend ;)
by t_g on 1/12/17, 12:57 PM
Reminds me of a good book I read in my ethics classes:
https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Harry-G-Frankfurt/dp/0691122...
by rchaud on 1/13/17, 1:05 AM
I agree with the spirit of what this is trying to promote, but its target audience likely considers themselves to be "critical thinkers" already and feel its everybody else who needs this kind of course.
That said, why does it have to be set up like a college course? Not only did looking at the site bring back memories of freshman year crit analysis courses, the way in which their proposed structure is laid out is completely out of sync with the way in which people absorb information today.
Fake news is shared widely because it's easy and doesn't require much mental exertion of the sharer/reader. The people most likely to share this kind of provocative "viral" content do not even have a working common-sense bullshit meter. Yet the well-meaning people behind the course think they're ready move from 200 word blog posts with a black-and-white view of the world to college-level reading?
I'd suggest looking at the UX/UI of an app like Google Primer (bite sized lessons on digital marketing) and see if that model can be applied here. Probably not Primer is designed to provide on-the-go info while this is designed as an actual college course.
by closed on 1/12/17, 1:31 PM
This looks fairly similar to the psychology course, "Everything is Fucked" [1]. EiF has a stellar syllabus, while this one seems a bit lighter (maybe it's for fewer credits). Seems like a pretty useful course, in any event.
I'm definitely curious about Susan Fiske's article, about how social networks encourage unmoderated academic "trash talk" [2]. Andy Gelman has a pretty negative critique of the article here [3].
[1] https://hardsci.wordpress.com/2016/08/11/everything-is-fucke...
[2] http://callingbullshit.org/readings/fiske2016mob.pdf
[3] http://andrewgelman.com/2016/09/21/what-has-happened-down-he...
edit: why the downvote?
by d_theorist on 1/12/17, 1:17 PM
Yes. Yes. Yes.
This is exactly what public education systems should be teaching. I'd almost say that next to basic literacy and mathematics, this is the most valuable subject to teach. It lays the groundwork for so much else.
by galfarragem on 1/12/17, 4:11 PM
'Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.' -- Aaron Levenstein
Or putting in other words: analysis is an art not a science.
by kornakiewicz on 1/12/17, 12:47 PM
I wish this kind of courses were mandatory for all undergraduates in our post-truth era.
by fizwhiz on 1/12/17, 4:46 PM
> Advertisers wink conspiratorially and invite us to join them in seeing through all the bullshit, then take advantage of our lowered guard to bombard us with second-order bullshit
This made me chortle
by RichardHeart on 1/12/17, 3:07 PM
The idiots of the world fight ferociously to spread their "100 percent correct" views, while the smart (HackerNews) remain relatively silent in fear against the masses of idiots flooding all mediums. Carl Bergstrom and Jevin West had the courage to scream loudly back, speaking smarts to stupid. Better marketing for good ideas! Bravo!
Marketing opinion. This page: http://callingbullshit.org/case_studies.html should be made homepage content, for it is their most compelling and clear value statement and takes little space. It took me too long to find naturally, and I didn't feel fulfilled on the bullshit pitch till I did. If you don't want to move it, perhaps call them examples instead of case studies, if you want to reach a general audience.
Serendipity. These professors made a course/website "bullshit" the title. Which I think's funny because I just uploaded a youtube video in a tophat/leopard print about how smart people should be more aggressive spreading their ideas.
by mhartl on 1/13/17, 2:07 AM
For better or for worse, the term bullshit has no exact synonym in the English language; we use the term because it precisely describes the phenomena we are studying.
Interestingly enough, the claim about bullshit lacking an exact synonym is false. Not only does bull by itself mean precisely the same thing, but in fact its use predates the compound formation by three centuries. The use of shit in bullshit is an intensifier, as in shitstorm or shitfit, though presumably the rather evocative image of bovine excrement was also a factor.
From the Google dictionary:
```
    bull (3)
    bo͝ol/
    noun informal
    noun: bull

        stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense.
        "much of what he says is sheer bull"

    Origin
    early 17th century: of unknown origin.


    bull·shit
    ˈbo͝olˌSHit/
    vulgar slang
    noun
    noun: bullshit

        1. stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense.

    Origin
    early 20th century: from bull (3) + shit.
```
by supergreg on 1/12/17, 1:28 PM
> we are proposing to teach it at the University of Washington in the near future
I call BS.
by sfifs on 1/12/17, 1:09 PM
This is a really good effort! In analytics and data science world where I work, it's difficult to train our junior people to think through all the reasons their conclusions might be misleading. The cases are likely to be very helpful to get the thinking process started.
by mulmen on 1/12/17, 12:43 PM
There are four kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, statistics and big data.
by kingkawn on 1/12/17, 1:05 PM
It isn't about identifying bullshit so much as coming up with a subjective preference set to carry out and seek out that leads to a better world regardless of the circumstances.
by cafed00d on 1/13/17, 5:52 PM
This reminds me of Jon Stewart's swan song of "Bullshit is everywhere"[1] message.
Sigh, I miss Jon Stewart.
[1]. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ss6u07/the-daily-show-with-jon...
by dood on 1/12/17, 2:22 PM
Looking at the name I thought this was going to be some kind of wiki-encyclopedia of bullshit, where people could submit reasons why any given thing is bullshit.
Am a little disappointed actually, that would be a handy reference. Though naturally such a thing would almost immediately devolve into arguments about the degree to which anything is bullshit, but that could still be valuable.
by Paul-ish on 1/12/17, 4:59 PM
The criticism of this course in principle is ironic to me. A lot of people are saying "This course is pointless, the people who would take this course don't need it." Which seems to imply... that they wouldn't take the course. Which would, by their own logic, imply they probably need it.
We all have blind spots, we just have different blind spots.
by rebuilder on 1/12/17, 7:45 PM
Ok, so it's not "this course" in the "you can go here to take this course" sense, but in the "there may be a course held somewhere some day" sense? Because I was interested but baffled when I tried to find the course or info about where to take part on that site.
by Dowwie on 1/12/17, 2:48 PM
Is this a MOOC? I don't see lecture videos.
I laughed hard after reading Week 3:
Week 3. The natural ecology of bullshit. Where do we find bullshit? Why news media provide bullshit. TED talks and the marketplace for upscale bullshit. Why social media provide ideal conditions for the growth and spread of bullshit.
by TeMPOraL on 1/12/17, 1:11 PM
From http://callingbullshit.org/syllabus.html:
> but recently a fake news story actually provoked nuclear threats issued by twitter.
Nuclear threats issued by Twitter. What a world we live in.
by OJFord on 1/12/17, 5:00 PM
> For better or for worse, the term bullshit has no exact synonym in the English language
Perhaps only in British use (?) - but 'rubbish' and 'nonsense' can both be used to replace 'bullshit', other than qua faeces.
by dajohnson89 on 1/12/17, 3:16 PM
This "bullshit" meme is getting tired. It seems like a cutesy way to say something like "not rigorous" or "deceptive". Which a good introductory course in logic (informal and formal) will help in spotting.
by abrax3141 on 1/12/17, 2:11 PM
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/humor/fionavar/flame_school
by gcatalfamo on 1/12/17, 1:40 PM
I think this is an effort towards the people that don't need such effort. The people really needing this course will never willingly read - or understand - such educated content.
by booleandilemma on 1/12/17, 2:21 PM
90% of everything is crap.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law
by perseuswiki on 1/12/17, 6:01 PM
more supplementary readings:
"SILENT RISK :NASSIM NICHOLAS TALEB" ( pdf )
http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/SilentRisk.pdf
and
"Taleb: The Intellectual Yet Idiot"
https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e...
by yarauuta on 1/12/17, 2:35 PM
Everything around you is bullshit. Click here, follow/upvote us, we are not.
Shallow "facting" does not help the the cause.
by tomp on 1/12/17, 1:12 PM
> In this course we aim to teach you how to think critically about the data and models that constitute evidence in the social and natural sciences
I call bullshit on the existence of "social sciences". Even the best attempts at controlled, reproducible experiments were laughable, so at most we can call them "social studies".
by quotha on 1/12/17, 4:05 PM
If you can't call callingbullshitdotorg bullshit, you've learned nothing!
by curiousgal on 1/12/17, 1:03 PM
Isn't this just a collection of things to read rather than a course?
by geodel on 1/12/17, 1:13 PM
> So, the aim of this course is to help students navigate the bullshit-rich modern environment by identifying bullshit, seeing through it, and combatting it with effective analysis and argument.
I am calling bullshit on this.
by artur_makly on 1/12/17, 6:09 PM
glad to see the groundswell!
However I made a more efficient approach at solving this : http://TrumpTweets.io
The manifesto : http://TrumpTweets.io/manifesto
by DonHopkins on 1/12/17, 3:27 PM
..."other tools of persuasion" like posing as your own fan on message boards to defend and flatter yourself, after you're criticized for claiming that women are "treated differently by society for exactly the same reason that children and the mentally handicapped are treated differently. It’s just easier this way for everyone."
http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adams-plannedchaos-sockpuppe...
Scott Adams, talking about Scott Adams in the third person, while pretending not to be Scott Adams:
- [0] plannedchaos -21 points 4 months ago
If an idiot and a genius disagree, the idiot generally thinks the genius is wrong. He also has a lot of idiot reasons to back his idiot belief. That's how the idiot mind is wired.
It's fair to say you disagree with Adams. But you can't rule out the hypothesis that you're too dumb to understand what he's saying.
And he's a certified genius. Just sayin'.
by dccoolgai on 1/12/17, 12:55 PM
Yes. Bullshit is ruining everything. There needs to be some kind of grassroots movement to stop it.
by fiatjaf on 1/12/17, 12:56 PM
This is a course on being intelligent, it seems. If you are able to teach people how to be intelligent without making them actually intelligent (= to know a lot of things) then it is magic.
by SFJulie on 1/12/17, 1:10 PM
The trollometer Plumpfmeter 2.1 can actively be turned into a bullshit detector by using a post anaphylactic reaction using the original designed http://la.buvette.org/tech/reseau/prumpleffer-2.html based on deep machine learning with the latest green powder AI.
Don't get trolled or bullshited again, buy Plumfmeter the only and original protection that really works.*
* Will make you famous, less gullible and totally smart without effort or learning
Recommended by our best customers: Trump.inc, NSA, EU parliament, EvilCorp.gmbh.