from Hacker News

Bootstrap 4 drops IE9 support and goes full flexbox

by luisrudge on 12/21/16, 7:07 PM with 217 comments

  • by mgkimsal on 12/21/16, 8:34 PM

    For everyone saying "Foundation" when people ask what else... let me explain why Bootstrap is used so much more frequently than all other options combined.

    http://foundation.zurb.com vs http://getbootstrap.com

    Each has a link to 'download'.

    Foundation's link takes me to a page where I have a bunch of options, and a bit "build a custom generated version".

    Bootstrap's takes me to a screen with 3 options, but also - and this is key - CDN links. Right there. I can paste a few lines in my HTML template and start working.

    I don't need to download/generate code.

    I don't need to install node/npm/etc.

    I don't need to install and learn sass stuff.

    I don't need to make a lot of decisions or do a lot of extra unrelated stuff to get started.

    Bootstrap is the PHP of the css/grid/framework world (for better and for worse).

    I truly hope they keep the CDN hosted stuff for Bootstrap 4.

    EDIT: didn't mean to pick on foundation specifically - this "take control of every aspect of all your layout/grid/css" that most other frameworks require works to their disadvantage when it comes to popularity and uptake.

  • by ceejay on 12/21/16, 7:51 PM

    I find it extremely powerful that major open source projects are calling the shots instead of the major browser vendors.

    For some who may not recall, I think the most famous / historic move was when jQuery decided version 2 would deprecate support for IE 6/7/8.

    Originally jQuery project would go out of their way to make sure all browsers were covered. Needless to say these days Microsoft is far more receptive to the needs of the open source community.

  • by based2 on 12/21/16, 7:21 PM

  • by astrodust on 12/21/16, 7:28 PM

    It's so great that IE9 is essentially extinct.

  • by dbond on 12/21/16, 9:06 PM

    "Drop IE9 support for v4 beta?" "fuck it, why not"

    https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/21387

    This isn't how you should drop support, it might be a good choice but can we at least have some discussion, maybe even an RFC, not just declare it be so within the space of 3 hours and lock the issue...

    Like this: https://github.com/emberjs/rfcs/pull/45

  • by tmoreton on 12/21/16, 9:28 PM

    Finally! Every other major framework needs to jump on this bandwagon and stop supporting IE9 and then the users will realize they are outdated...at least I would hope so. Every aspect of Frontend development adds a ton of extra hours when building around IE9's quirks. I had the same idea as Bootstrap building my own Flexbox based CSS framework Useful.ly

  • by cygned on 12/21/16, 8:48 PM

    Ah the worst thing about Bootstrap is jQuery because it's a pain to integrate it into Single Page Applications properly. That's why I enjoy Bulma (bulma.io) so much - just CSS but still 90% of the stuff you get in Bootstrap.

  • by nateberkopec on 12/22/16, 1:10 AM

    I've replaced Bootstrap with Milligram (https://milligram.github.io/) on all of my projects.

    Yes, it weighs far far less (which makes it suitable for inlining directly in the head tag), but mostly I just find the source far more readable.

  • by tribby on 12/21/16, 9:59 PM

    traditionally the reason I've avoided flexbox for layout (fine for most items within that layout) is the wonky rendering on slower connections[0]. is bootstrap doing anything to get around this or did they really go "full flexbox"? since I use susy[1] I'll never need bootstrap for grids, but I'm curious about the flexbox adoption and tradeoffs.

    0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPryjyFP5FM

    1. http://susy.oddbird.net/

  • by apaprocki on 12/21/16, 7:55 PM

    What are peoples' opinions whether CSS Grid will replace Flexbox usage in a lot of simple layout cases?

  • by rado on 12/22/16, 7:56 AM

    An unfortunate tipping point for accessibility. My personal project natUIve is full flexbox, supports IE8, doesn't require JS even for the slider. https://radogado.github.io/natuive/

  • by jgalt212 on 12/22/16, 12:04 PM

    I'm a bit sad for the dropping of IE 9 support, if only because it was the first IE that had a "fast" JS engine and didn't take forever to render our JS heavy site.

  • by ourmandave on 12/21/16, 7:52 PM

    Of course there's a flexbox JS shim.

    https://github.com/jonathantneal/flexibility

  • by sergiotapia on 12/21/16, 9:25 PM

    That's great. I wonder how much traffic will be saved worldwide without .col-md-6 html being sent around. Just straight up content HTML with minimal "boxing".

    This is great news!

  • by chiefalchemist on 12/22/16, 4:25 AM

    Slightly off topic but ZURB Foundation for Email is a nice tool for generation markup that'll work in most email clients

    FWIW you don't really know a lot of Foundation to use it.

  • by andy_ppp on 12/22/16, 2:51 AM

    I'd love it if they had a things don't look broken promise for IE9. Seems like it should be relatively easy to sequentially layout the page in IE9 without flexbox?

    Is everyone else dropping IE9 support at this stage...

    I'm a bit out of the frontend developer loop these days being full stack and learning things like docker or elixir is more fun, and useful, than the vagaries of the latest promise library/CSS Pre processor/awful class naming scheme/etc.

  • by cwt137 on 12/21/16, 11:35 PM

    This is a pull request that hasn't been merged yet. Maybe the title should be "Proposal to drop IE9 support and go full flexbox in Bootstrap 4"

  • by ksec on 12/22/16, 3:10 AM

    Since Google, is essentially what everybody in the western world uses to search, ( Russia, China, Japan, Korea all gets their own search from somewhere else. )

    I wish they could release some stats on browser usage. Otherwise i dont know where to get concrete information without substantial bias. Also the time which browsers are used. Since people are likely using different browsers in School / Work compared to at Home.

  • by gtk40 on 12/21/16, 9:24 PM

    IE7-IE9 still receive security updates on some versions of Windows. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/microsoft-internet-ex...

    IE9 is the newest version of IE available for Windows Vista SP2 for example.

  • by desireco42 on 12/21/16, 8:22 PM

    Right move. We need to push forward.

  • by szastupov on 12/22/16, 4:20 AM

    Migration from 3 to 4 will certainly be a pain but then you're gonna love it. I love new cards, utility classes, better out of the box support for mobile browsers.

    But beware of breaking changes between alphas, there are quite a few.

  • by bluetwo on 12/21/16, 9:15 PM

    My front-end framework is simply HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.

    Why complicate my life?

    I do love flexbox, but I would rather simply code it by hand rather than have some tool/framework/precompiler do it for me.

  • by truth_sentinell on 12/22/16, 2:56 AM

    Was about damn time a major player like this dropped IE, should have been IE10 though. Good move nonetheless.

  • by dexterdog on 12/21/16, 10:55 PM

    I thought you never go full flexbox

  • by buckbova on 12/21/16, 7:46 PM

    Does anyone know when to expect a RC? Looks to be in alpha still.

  • by vayarajesh on 12/22/16, 3:31 AM

    I feel I have gotten too used to Material design and I hardly ever use bootstrap. Do anyone of you feel the same?

    What are the advantages of Bootstrap over Material Design?

  • by scotchio on 12/21/16, 9:20 PM

    What percentage of users still use IE9?

  • by jeffehobbs on 12/22/16, 2:40 AM

    Excellent choice!

  • by wcarron on 12/21/16, 7:55 PM

    Bootstrap is really so far behind now I don't know why anyone even considers it as a viable option anymore. How long have they been in alpha/beta stage without a solid RC? It's legitimately pathetic and abysmal at this point.

    I'm honestly really confused. I'd love to ask one of the devs how they've managed to literally do nothing while other, better CSS frameworks have been created AND versioned in the same timeframe.

    Bootstrap 4 is just a sad attempt at preventing obsolescence. Time to let it die.