from Hacker News

Canada’s tech sector is hemorrhaging talent [audio]

by yannickt on 8/15/16, 5:52 PM with 108 comments

  • by Danieru on 8/16/16, 1:22 AM

    If you want canadian talent you can get it, but you cannot pretend you deserve it. You must work for it.That means identifying talent in university before the Microsoft or Google recruiters get ahold of their resume. It means finding developers before the skill is obvious for the big corps. Then you treat them well and have them start their career before graduation.

    During my university the local division of Coverity did a good job of this. They sponsored the programming club events. They sent real engineers to every career fair. They gave internships to 2 years. They kept on skilled programmers throughout the year. One guy I knew got married and bought a house while working part time there even before graduation.

    I would say that company grabbed the majority of the high-performing nice-to-work-with students from my year. The only ones they did not get was me (video game programming japan), and my friend (C++ standard library programming at google).

    Or you could whine about why you deserve to get Canada's best at insulting wages. Maybe that will work.

  • by bishnu on 8/16/16, 1:42 AM

    When I was searching for entry level SWE jobs in Canada in 2011 after abruptly dropping out of grad school, I applied to ~50 positions and interviewed at around a dozen (public+private sector) in Vancouver + Alberta, all paying $50K-$60K.

    A year later, Google swooped in with an offer that quintupled my compensation. The thing that struck me about it most was the supposedly-intense Google programmer interviews were actually far less difficult than most of the all-day interviews I did for Canadian institutions. I was a bit outraged that these interviews could be so tough for such meager compensation, especially given the cost of living in Vancouver. I was surprised they were able to get away with it, and it looks like it's starting to bite them in the ass, for which I am glad.

    Edit: The specific places I would name, if anyone's curious, are Zymeworks and SAP in Vancouver, as well as staff research positions at UBC, University of Calgary, and the BC Cancer Agency.

  • by theGimp on 8/16/16, 1:33 AM

    Any Canadian developer will tell you the problem is the abysmal pay that Canadian companies offer.

    I love my country and would love nothing more than to stay here, but when moving south of the border means a 50% bump, it's hard to stay in Canada.

    It doesn't help that most Canadian CEOs talk about the issue as if they're entitled to Canadian graduates working for them without making any attempt at matching US pay packages.

  • by canistr on 8/16/16, 12:54 AM

    I listened to the podcast yesterday and while the premise is correct, the episode is actually lousy at explaining any of it, discussing anything that happened at the meetings with "leaders", and ultimately had the wrong people discussing the topic. This ended sounding like a platform for Dan Debow to talk about whatever agenda he wanted with little REAL pushback from the host.

    The only reassuring thing about this podcast was the brief mention that Ted Livingston (of Kik) was at those talks with so-called "leaders of Canada". I mean, do we really expect the likes of Galen Weston, Magna International, and the like to really talk about innovation or tech? Other than Kik, which of those companies would any person on HN really be interested in working at?

  • by iamshs on 8/16/16, 1:09 AM

    When I was searching for jobs, could not just believe the startup offers. $35K - $45K in Vancouver. I would have felt like a slave working for that kind of money in Vancouver. Albertan co-op guy would easily earn double that. I have not researched other nuances of this situation, but it put me off that scene entirely. Unfortunately, great white north will keep bleeding talent.

  • by walrus01 on 8/16/16, 2:30 AM

    Vancouver: consistently ranked as one of the world's top ten most expensive cities, with salaries half of what you can make in Seattle.

    The Vancouver technology sector is also a joke compared to Seattle... To the extent that hootsuite is a 'big deal' there.

  • by ahmeni on 8/16/16, 1:40 AM

    I grew up in Vancouver and miss it daily but none of the salaries would allow me to purchase a house anywhere closer than New Westminster. Instead now I live in Sydney, Aus and have the same cost of living but a salary that's scaled appropriately.

  • by nwmcsween on 8/16/16, 4:01 AM

    The issue is the wages, in Vancouver where a house is easily in the many millions companies seem to think it's fine and dandy to pay 80k a year in the high range, ultra high range is 120k/y and get this - low level assembly and C programming generally pays less than ruby or js.

  • by fatdog on 8/16/16, 2:00 PM

    Companies in Canada don't pay as much because a) there is a talent pool who will take what they are offering, b) they don't make enough revenue from a given dev to justify high salaries, or c) their investors do not see the risk/reward payoff of investing in top tier devs.

    As for a), yes, Canada's multiculturalism attracts migrants, who in spite of their talent have a crappy negotiating position and are easily taken advantage of. Everyone has a story of the guy who barely speaks english but who can code getting worked like a dog for peanuts.

    for b) for software in Canada, you sell to the 5 banks or government. it's recurring license fees from stable customers but in a limited market.

    And c) there is no market for software in canada that would justify a billion dollar valuation. Those valuations were based on cornering a user base to use as a sales channel.

    Further Canada's de-facto official policy of currency debasement to keep industrial exports afloat means limited purchasing power for citizens, therefore anything that succeeds has to succeed somewhere else.

    It's a great place to outsource your dev shop, kind of like a more reliable India or Belarus, but as a market it's just not large enough for to reap the network effect / micro-margin/infinite scale benefits of software solutions.

  • by ced on 8/16/16, 2:35 AM

    Does anyone know why the pay is so much lower? It seems lame to blame it on "culture" (if it's really true, that's a great arbitrage opportunity). Are there systemic country-wide forces that push down on the salaries?

  • by robertelder on 8/16/16, 1:41 AM

    A huge factor that I don't see any comments about yet, is the exchange rate. Look at this chart of the USD/CAD in the past 3 years:

    http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CAD&view=10Y

    A 35-40% swing in the purchasing power of the currency is a pretty big deal.

  • by grownseed on 8/16/16, 3:28 AM

    As others have said, the salaries aren't particularly enticing and this is being felt strongly in a place as expensive as Vancouver. Interestingly, I think this might drive a boost in immigration - the reason I can stay in Vancouver is by having my job here, or going through the immigration ordeal with another company. I don't think it's a particularly healthy situation whichever way you look at it.

  • by karma_vaccum123 on 8/16/16, 2:05 AM

    Grew up there, went to Queen's, but after one crappy job in Ottawa in 1995, I left for the Bay Area for good.

    Now when I go back I'm struck by the high prices, high taxes, and a general (and sadly very Canadian) aversion to risk.

    I used to brag about Canada and honestly felt it was a better place to live...I don't think that any more.

  • by Terr_ on 8/16/16, 2:13 AM

    Amusingly, I've been informed that my company's corporate overlords have decided to focus on growing Vancouver as their "centralized" west-coast-development location, rather than Seattle, primarily due to salaries.

    So I guess we'll have to see if that works out for them.

  • by noarchy on 8/16/16, 5:31 AM

    Getting by as a tech worker in Canada is possible. The way I made it work was to take remote roles. Don't live in the Vancouver or Toronto areas, if possible - that's just not going to work, given the out-of-control cost of living associated with both areas. There are still plenty of places one can live in Canada that are not saddled with such costs.

  • by ommunist on 8/16/16, 2:59 AM

    Wait and see British coming to Canada. Brexit changed the odds.