from Hacker News

Yelp Extortion Allegations Stack Up (March 2009)

by TrevorBramble on 1/19/10, 4:51 PM with 78 comments

  • by zzzmarcus on 1/19/10, 5:58 PM

    I stopped using Yelp and uninstalled it from my iPhone when I read the article last year.

    Yelp's business model doesn't sit well with me. Even if the allegations of good reviews disappearing for businesses who don't pay up aren't true, the idea that there is a service out there that you don't want but you're almost forced into paying for since it's affecting your business directly feels to me like paying the mafia to 'protect' your business.

    If Yelp really does want to help both businesses and consumers, give businesses the ability to respond to reviews for free and don't artificially alter results, be like Google and let your algorithm work. Make money selling ads.

    It reminds me of the whole GetSatisfaction drama with 37 Signals from a few months ago (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=540540). This type of business model where you provide a business a "service" they didn't ask for then try to charge them for it will never go over well.

    [Edit] FWIW this page, found below in relme's comment (http://www.yelp.com/myths) directly answers every one of my concerns with Yelp. If it's true then great, sounds like they're doing things well. I find it hard to write off all the complaints as fictional though.

  • by timcederman on 1/19/10, 5:58 PM

    My wife and I both recently posted negative reviews at businesses that were advertising with Yelp. Neither review (which were both fair and truthful) ever showed up on site.

    edit: Just to clarify, I spoke to Yelp about it. The reply I got was "[The] spam algorithm can filter based on how established user is. [Your post was] not deleted & can re-appear on biz page. Still live on your profile."

  • by brandnewlow on 1/19/10, 5:41 PM

    The small business owners I know in Chicago say Yelp calls them incessantly, offering to let them take over their profile pages for $500/month (don't quote me on that price).

    Their biggest issue with Yelp is that they tell their customers to go review them on Yelp. The customers do. Then Yelp deletes the reviews because the people who posted them weren't "true Yelpers." So only reviews from people who post lots of reviews are valid? WTF.

  • by dmgrossman on 1/19/10, 8:51 PM

    Sales operations where you need many customers, each consisting of low price point "buys" typically require a large salesforce of relatively low-paid junior people who make most of their money on commission (similar to classified sales at newspapers). Basically a boiler room style operation where people "dial for dollars" all day. It's not a surprise that some sales people may have attempted these tactics without management's knowledge or approval.

  • by JCThoughtscream on 1/19/10, 5:51 PM

    It is actually fairly plausible that Stoppelmann has no idea at all that his sales representatives are using such shady tactics.

    That is not, however, good news for Stoppelmann. Not in any sense. It would indicate that, at the client-business level of interaction, there is no functional oversight at all. That Yelp's management's either willing to turn a blind eye, or are so negligent as to allow this to occur even in the face of growing criticisms.

    Incompetence or malevolence; either way, they're in trouble.

  • by aaronblohowiak on 1/19/10, 5:15 PM

    This is actually racketeering and not extortion.

  • by wushupork on 1/19/10, 8:31 PM

    We had a similar issue over at Extreme Kung Fu where I teach out of. A Yelp rep called (this was maybe a year or year and a half ago) and same thing: We notice you have a lot of positive reviews and we drive a lot of traffic to your site. The implication of the conversation was that if we wanted to stay that way, we better sign up as a sponsor.

    I even wrote a blog post about it, and that got picked up when the whole Yelp thing blew up last year. I used to recommend Yelp to everyone, now I feel dirty even talking about it.

  • by relme on 1/19/10, 6:57 PM

  • by blasdel on 1/19/10, 8:50 PM

    JWZ has gotten the shakedown too: http://jwz.livejournal.com/1002269.html

  • by BigDamnDeal on 1/19/10, 9:54 PM

    This is why I want Foursquare to start handling reviews. (Foursquare lets people "check in" at a bar, restaurant, or other venue and notify friends.)

    Foursquare's developers say they're working on winnowing out false checkins with GPS, which should give them a good idea of where their users are actually going, and when. I'd trust reviews written on the spot more already.

    I'd also trust reviews from my friends. And since Foursquare is a social network first, I've built an actual collection of real-world friends, not a network of people I only know through a web site. These are people who largely share my taste in venues.

    It's obvious that a lot of people want an alternative to Yelp. I'd try out others, but I particularly want one that verifies reviewers were actually there, and one that pays attention to what I already like and my friends like.

    I want a Pandora for places.

  • by teye on 1/19/10, 5:14 PM

    Bad reviews -> self/friend posted shill review -> shill reviews removed -> "Yelp removes my 5-star reviews!"

    I'd expect a little exaggeration from the frustrated party, and these conversations sound like they're just barely more than benign. I'll have to ask my friend in Yelp ad sales how pushy they get.

  • by gursikh on 1/19/10, 9:36 PM

    There probably isn't a single business owner out there that feels comfortable with the existence of an online directory where disgruntled customers can collate and publish their opinions. I'm sure a good deal of them are willing to lie to rid themselves of the nuisance. Just because Yelp is creates a large headache for lazy business owners doesn't mean it's evil. It's creating an environment where business strive to provide quality service. It does so by creating incentives for doing so (good reviews) and disincentives for failing to do so (bad reviews).

    There are no facts in this article. Just allegations.

  • by RyanMcGreal on 1/19/10, 6:59 PM

    > As you have undoubtedly noticed, we've been doing some shuffling around here, and the page you're looking for seems to have gone missing.

    Bad web designers, bad! There's no excuse not to ensure that old URLs return HTTP 301 redirects to the new URLs.

  • by alttab on 1/19/10, 8:27 PM

    I don't remember who it was or what their business was called , but someone else got called out for something similar. It was under the guise of brand management as the site aggregated social media, blogs, etc about what people were saying about a company on the Internet then charging business owners to make replies.

    It came down to brands being held hostage and the story that broke was very similar. I wish I could remember the guy. I remember his blog posts sounding very proud though.

    As far as yelp goes, Its probably only the sales or a small portion of the operation (maybe). I have a friend that works at yelp and I'd be dissapointed if he stayed there knowing this was going on.

  • by neurotech1 on 1/19/10, 7:07 PM

  • by motters on 1/19/10, 8:22 PM

    Before reading this I'd never heard of Yelp. It sounds like a good example of antisocial networking, of which we might see more examples in future.

  • by acgourley on 1/19/10, 5:18 PM

    I was expecting to see something damning but this looks like what yelp has been admitting to do for a while now.

  • by dzlobin on 1/19/10, 6:42 PM

    Now..two things. 1. Can anyone comment on the legality of this internet based extortion as opposed to "regular" extortion?

    2. Is this by any chance the reason why the Google deal fell through? I know we heard otherwise but it makes me wonder.

  • by marcusbooster on 1/19/10, 9:35 PM

    I would think with that many reviews the potential for libel is a concern.

  • by prbuckley on 1/19/10, 7:04 PM

    What happened to the article? I am getting 404 errors? Is this some sort of Yelp conspiracy? Maybe East Bay Express didn't pay up!

  • by spolsky on 1/19/10, 5:05 PM

    old news ... march '09