from Hacker News

Belgium Tells Facebook to Stop Storing Personal Data from Non-Users

by dedene on 11/9/15, 7:39 PM with 46 comments

  • by numair on 11/10/15, 3:44 AM

    Just so people are clear --

    Even if you are not using Facebook, even if none of your friends ever use Facebok or tag you in any content, Facebook is maintaining a shadow profile on you. They have your web browsing habits from the Like button, and in many countries (such as the United States) they have bought data from data brokers such as Datalogix to gain access to your grocery store purchases and other data. They can sell you as an audience on behalf of other sites/apps if they choose (they aren't doing this now, but they could), and they can continue to use third party mechanisms to keep close tabs on you. They might not know you by name, but they definitely know you by many other identifying traits.

    I would be very interested to see the results of a European data request by a non-Facebook-user in a country where Facebook has been aggressive in cutting data brokerage deals. Maybe the UK or something. We can get a lot of feel good rhetoric from the company's PR and employees, but nobody really knows what is collected and stored. (Of course, the company could say "we don't have data for anyone with that name," which would be factually correct.)

    There is another comment here that is completely wrong in asserting that Facebook only tracks you insomuch as is required to help your friends make use of the site. This fantasy notion might make people feel better about making use of the site -- sort of like how consumers of H&M will reason that "those Bangladeshi girls really needed the job" -- but it isn't the truth.

  • by mtgx on 11/9/15, 10:35 PM

    What I find hilarious is that besides this being like the 4th or 5th time Facebook got caught with this sort of tracking [1], and each time claiming it's "only a bug" - which it also did when it got caught in Belgium this spring [2] - it now comes and says "Wait a minute! We've been using this umm...bug...for 5 years! We will appeal the ruling! We want to keep using that...umm, bug." [3]

    > The company is “working to minimize any disruption to people’s access to Facebook in Belgium,” she said.

    Is that a threat? Why would there be a disruption? The ruling only affects their tracking of non-users. Disruption to the non-users?!

    Also, you know how they've also been saying for years that they would never (ever!) use Like button tracking (which is just a - pretty damn persistent - bug when tracking non-users, anyway) for advertising? Yeah, another lie [4].

    [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/its-complicated-facebooks...

    [2] http://www.itpro.co.uk/security/24324/facebook-okay-were-tra...

    [3] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/09/us-facebook-belgiu...

    [4] http://www.technologyreview.com/news/541351/facebooks-like-b...

  • by Create on 11/10/15, 6:04 AM

    We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world.

    This should not actually be a complicated inquiry.

    https://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRe...

    https://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-...

    Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999

  • by cm2187 on 11/10/15, 8:44 AM

    One can see this as one more Belgian eccentricity, and the list is long. But this is bound to generalise. The amount of data collected throught tracking is awfully intrusive. Between google, facebook, linkedin, and the hundreds of ad networks, one can know pretty much anything there is to know on someone: network of friends, political opinions, sexual preferences, health problems, spending habbits, etc. It is bound to become illegal ultimately, when politicians finally get a clue.

    I am not sure it would help however. Making something illegal only makes sense if it's enforceable. Making tracking illegal is like making hacking into systems illegal. If the offender is based in another country there is very little one can do anyway. Therefore to me the solution has to be technological. Encryption, strict first party cookies/data/javascript is the only realistic response. The browser as it is is broken.

  • by melted on 11/9/15, 10:50 PM

    How about not singling out FB and forbid the same to Google and others as well?

  • by _lce0 on 11/10/15, 2:48 AM

    so what are we waiting to deny third-party cookies?

  • by Kristine1975 on 11/9/15, 10:42 PM

    >Facebook faces a fine of 250,000 euros ($269,000) a day

    Facebook's net income in 2014 was US$2.94 billion, according to Wikipedia. I'm not so sure they will care about a fine that low. Especially if they expect to make more money by continuing to store non-users' personal data.

  • by scottshepard on 11/9/15, 10:17 PM

    Good.

  • by GauntletWizard on 11/10/15, 1:04 AM

    How about we learn to deal with the fact that they're not storing data that is yours in the sense of ownership, but only in the sense that it's about you? They're not storing data for no reason; They are storing data their customers have provided for the purposes of contacting you. They are storing data about you for the people who, like it or not, you shared your data with.

    The nasty 90s database-dump sharing is over; Companies hoard this data and consider it their private treasure, not to mention the nasty and ill-considered privacy laws that have already sprung up around sharing it. Facebook is not selling your info to marketers; They are selling your eyeballs to marketers if you use the service, and using your data to better target it. For all the egregious offenses that Facebook is guilty of, this is not an offense.

    I have the right to a little black book. I have a right to a diary that calls you names. I have a right to free speech, and sometimes your name is on my lips.

  • by throwawayaway on 11/9/15, 10:44 PM

    Good. But, I expect something unfortunate to happen to a high profile Belgian company or official in the near future.

    Of course, there's going to be no way for anyone to prove cause and effect either way. If I'm wrong about the reason, my confirmation bias will convince me otherwise.